Cowboy Bebop

[Tohya]

It's not really an opinion that none of those shows are similar to Cowboy Bebop except in having action sequences. Or in Monster, Full Metal Alchemist, Paranoia Agent, and Gantz's case of being an entirely different genre. If newer audiences can't see the difference between psychological thrillers, action shows, mysteries, and sci-fi, then that's really more their problem.
Superficial similarities aside, none of those do anything similar to Cowboy Bebop other than having general action sequences. They don't share themes, ideas, characters, or even plots

Obvious points are obvious I suppose. Indeed none of those titles have anything similar to Cowboy Bebop, but that wasnt the point of my listing them. If I had said, whatever Cowboy Bebop excels in, X anime does it better then there would be somekind of point to your response. But if someone asks me, name me a couple of titles on the same level of quality if not better the Bebop, then it doesnt matter if said titles don't share themes, ideas, characters, or plots. If it does matter, then you should take issue with a lot of anime top # lists. And to carlify, read the first two pages of the thread, you'll better understand the point of what im trying to say. And btw, Its not a matter of newer audiences seeing the difference between genres, its a matter of seeing what the difference is between one of the greatest animes of all time and just a really good anime.

Oh and were talking about anime that have come out since Bebop, hence my exclusion of Lupin. (although Lupin titles are still being released)

Well that was petty of you.

It wasnt meant to be, but you have to imagine the facepalm I did when you were saying this or that about CB even though I was saying the exact same thing.

But let's say hypothetically you can come up with 20 titles to come out since Bebop or maybe even more than that. How is that average when there are hundreds of titles out there which don't even come close? So perhaps my problem is your use of the word average more than anything else. Such quality titles are rather few and far between and we've only realized this now because we're much more aware of everything else that comes out in Japan than we were in years prior.

When speaking about the best anime titles to come out of Japan since the invasion, Bebop is more in less average to above average. Thats what I was talking about. Im kind of surprised you weren't able to grasp the point I was trying to get at. Cowboy Bebop benefited greatly from timing. You release CB in 09 or '10 does it compete against a Gurren Lagann or does it outshine a Code Geass? Does it compare to a Haruhi? Thats the argument im trying to make. Yes your right and I agree that CB is not an average anime but if you compare it to the more acclaimed animes (not saying that the animes I just mentioned are acclaimed) it kind of is. Admittingly that wasn't my orginial point. I threw the word average around in anticipation of what a non-fan of CB might say to me. In reality, were not disagreeing, you just misuderstood me.

 

[Sketch]

It wasnt meant to be, but you have to imagine the facepalm I did when you were saying this or that about CB even though I was saying the exact same thing.

How was any of the post I wrote at all similar to what you were stating in the post I responded to?

Your post

Here is the thing about Cowboy bebop, is that looking back at it now....yea it was a very flawed series, and if you compare it to other stuff that is out nowadays its an average series at best. But at the time it came out, 1998 in japan and 02 in the states....it was best thing since slice bread. There was no show like it, there was no show that was as awesome or cool or as badass as cowboy bebop was, and thats just the truth.
And without the success of cowboy bebop, who knows were anime in the states would be right now. So when looking back at Cowboy bebop you always have to remember this....not only was it an awesome show for its time and era, but that it was an important show that was instrumental in the raise and success of anime in the states

My post

There hasn't been anything even LIKE Bebop in several years much less as on the same level of quality. Cowboy Bebop is timeless. It truly is. Because it's animation still looks great, it's characters aged very well and it's just as compelling today as it was when it first was produced. New people discover Bebop all the time so it's not just nostalgia at the helm. Personally I was never a big fan of Bebop but I've always maintained a healthy respect for it.

It's one of the only Japanese cartoons I'd consider worthy of a top 10 cartoons of all time list. I like some shows better but I'd never argue they are actually better made, written, acted, storyboarded, scored, etc. Quality sides with Bebop even today it's still a unique and engaging experience.

I said nothing akin to Bebop being "the best thing since sliced bread" I gave objective views on the quality of various elements of the work in question. My folly was implying that a show had to be like Bebop to be as good as Bebop. Which is not the case. I also truly mean in recent years as in the past couple of years. You have to turn back the clock nearly 5 years in Japan to find a show that's either like Bebop or as good as Bebop. Mind you Baccano, Darker than Black and Black Lagoon aren't exactly hot off the press here much less in Japan.Even Michiko no Hatchin which has yet to be licensed is getting a few years old. The average new anime viewer wont find anything all that similar in tone or style to Bebop in the backlog of the last couple of years and likewise they wont find many true gems int he past couple of years either but not because they aren't like Bebop. There are some out there but they are few and far between.

Im kind of surprised you weren't able to grasp the point I was trying to get at.

That was just a little condescending. I'm not missing your point, I'm disagreeing with it.

Cowboy Bebop benefited greatly from timing. You release CB in 09 or '10 does it compete against a Gurren Lagann or does it outshine a Code Geass? Does it compare to a Haruhi?

Yes it competes against Gurren Lagann, yes it outshines Code Geass (which is more flash than substance anyway) and it certainly compares to Haruhi. How doesn't it compare to any of them in quality? What made Cowboy Bebop good back then is what makes it good today. It was well written, well scored, well animated, compelling and relatively unique even after everything that has come since it.

I agree that CB is not an average anime but if you compare it to the more acclaimed animes (not saying that the animes I just mentioned are acclaimed) it kind of is.

And which anime would those be. Paranoia Agent surely but what else. How many shows can really be considered masterpieces? Paranoia Agent should be and so should Bebop.

Admittingly that wasn't my orginial point. I threw the word average around in anticipation of what a non-fan of CB might say to me. In reality, were not disagreeing, you just misuderstood me.

Admittingly, I didn't expect my first post to garner so many responses.

I rather disagree that someone who saw many other exceptional anime before Bebop would consider Bebop average because I've met plenty of people who saw many newer quality anime before Bebop and still consider Bebop one of the best made anime to date. I actually didn't watch Bebop back in the day. It wasn't until several years after the fact that I watched more than a few episodes.

But like I said before, it's not actually one of my favorites but it would be one of the first I recommend to somebody interested in a good animated series.

 

[Desensitized]

Yes, it's better than Code Geass, Gurren Lagann and Haruhi on a consistency basis with more high points as well. Code Geass and Hauhi have plenty of crap filler material to hold them back and I just plain don't like GL and on an objective level I don't see what it accomplishes that would make Cowboy Bebop into an average series.

There are plenty of anime I have liked since it came out about as much (some more so) like Beck, Monster, and Paranoia Agent, but none of them made Cowboy Bebop feel like a lesser series just by being great. It can't be outdated because none of the series that have come out since have 'tried to be Cowboy Bebop' and outdone it on every level- which proves how unique it is. I'll be saying the same thing about Beck, Monster, and Paranoia Agent in a few years, I'm sure.

It's still exceptional at what it does, and time has not made what it does 'average'.

 

[Tohya]

How was any of the post I wrote at all similar to what you were stating in the post I responded to?

And how are they that different? Your saying Bebop was timeless and one of the top ten animes quality wise. I was praising Bebop and explaining its impact on anime in the states. I only threw the word average out there in response to some of the posts earlier in the thread. I mean heck, if I take out the words average and flawed (which btw are words that almost have nothing to do with the context of what I was saying) it’s no different than 80% of the posts in this thread. I only responded to you because of the hyperbolic nature of your OP. You implied that there hadn’t been anything better to come out of Japan since Cowboy Bebop, which is totally and completely false. Evidence in the fact on how quickly you changed your tone when I easily named off a list of animes just as good if not better.

You have to turn back the clock nearly 5 years in Japan to find a show that's either like Bebop or as good as Bebop. Mind you Baccano, Darker than Black and Black Lagoon aren't exactly hot off the press here much less in Japan.Even Michiko no Hatchin which has yet to be licensed is getting a few years old. The average new anime viewer won’t find anything all that similar in tone or style to Bebop in the backlog of the last couple of years and likewise they won’t find many true gems into he past couple of years either but not because they aren't like Bebop. There are some out there but they are few and far between.

Sorry friend but you’re trying to argue something that doesn't need to be argued. Not to mention everything said here is predicated on subjectivness. I could easily name Cross game as one of the true gems to come out of Japan in the last year just as I can easily say Summer Wars trumps Knocking on Heavens Door. I could point you to Eden of the East. I could sit here all day and name anime gems that have come out in the last two years that are just as good if not better then Bebop. But then friend, here’s the thing, it’s just a matter of opinion.

You say you disagree with my point but in reality you disagree with my use of the word average. You get the "condescending" remarks because you couldn’t figure out the context in which the word was used in. You get the "pettiness" because you didn’t say anything different in your op then what I said, yet you seem to believe so.

And which anime would those be. Paranoia Agent surely but what else. How many shows can really be considered masterpieces? Paranoia Agent should be and so should Bebop.

Le Chevalier D'Eon, Neon Genies Evaneglion, any number of the Miyazaki films, FLCL, Akira, Vampire Hunter D, Revolutionary Girl Utena, seriously I could go on and on. One could easily argue Bebop as one of the masterpieces yet one could easily argue that it isn’t. I get that you respect it, but you are on the wrong side of the argument here friend.

I rather disagree that someone who saw many other exceptional anime before Bebop would consider Bebop average because I've met plenty of people who saw many newer quality anime before Bebop and still consider Bebop one of the best made anime to date.

And I have met people who say the opposite. See what I’m getting at here? All you’re doing here is disagreeing with my opinion. You’re free to do so; it’s just really not getting you anywhere.

Yes, it's better than Code Geass, Gurren Lagann and Haruhi on a consistency basis with more high points as well. Code Geass and Hauhi have plenty of crap filler material to hold them back and I just plain don't like GL and on an objective level I don't see what it accomplishes that would make Cowboy Bebop into an average series.

Subjective opinions are subjective. Not to mention that question was rhetorical...why you answered it...I haven’t the slightest clue....

 

[Funkatron]

Okay, everyone take a minute and cool off, NOW. Bickering back and forth is not tolerated in these forums. Don't make me lock this thread and pass out warnings.

 

[Sketch]

I would actually say Summer Wars was better than Knocking on Heavens Door and a great many films are better executed than Bebop. I didn't assume we were including films.

I've seen Eden of East. I loved every minute of it or at least enjoyed every minute of it. I wouldn't say it was better executed than Bebop but it certainly was prettier and one of the best shows I've seen in recent years like Baccano before it and Durarara after it.

See my favorite show is One Piece and I consider it one of the best cartoons and one of the best stories ever written but because of it's many flaws as a cartoon in particular I cannot on good conscience say it's better executed than various critically acclaimed anime.

I also never implied nothing has ever been better than Bebop. Rather that I haven't seen anything I consider as well executed from Japan in several years. Which I suppose is an opinion but I do happen to base it on a subjective scale not a personal interest one. Which you may feel has no reason to be argued but it's the very gripe I have with the current anime industry.

I don't believe I'm on the wrong side of this argument at all and your responses have been anything but friendly Tohya so don't call me "friend".

As Desensitized said there's really been nothing that tried to be Bebop and succeeded in besting it on all or even most fronts. For that reason Bebop stands the test of time and is regarded as a quality work today. There are some shows that are only good for their time and are thoroughly surprassed as time goes on and better stories are written and executed through a greater knowledge of what works and what doesn't work. Even so there are some that were so good at being what they were that decades later there's still nothing quite like them.

I'm not so sure you could easily argue Bebop isn't a masterpiece.

I consider Bebop to be one of those shows and anything but typical among other critically acclaimed animated series. If you disagree then I suppose we should just agree to disagree Tohya. Indeed that doesn't get either of us anywhere but sometimes that's how debates end when both individuals are sure they are right. Honestly you can hate Bebop for all I care but I'd question why anyone would. I guess kids might find it boring but they're not exactly the intended audience.