"Justice League: War" Animated Feature Pre-Release Discussion Thread, Part 2 (Spoilers)

[James Harvey]

Discuss the upcoming DC Universe Animated Original Movie Justice League: War, coming February 4th, 2014 to home video! Get all the news and updates right here in this very thread!

Justice League: War
Coming February 4th, 2014 to Blu-ray, DVD and for Digital Download!​

For the latest news, check out The World's Finest and the newest posts in this thread!

For other related news, check out the "DC Universe" Animated Feature News & Discussion Thread.

Note: The "Justice League: War" animated feature was initially confirmed by Warner Home Video on May 30th, 2013 from the back package art of the Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox Blu-ray release here. As a reminder, please use spoiler tags if posting graphic and detailed spoilers.

Related Discussions:
-Justice League: War Animated Feature Pre-Release Discussion Thread, Part 1 (Spoilers)

 

[KYO'NYUU IMOUTO]

Quoting this post.

As usual, you're way too critical. I agree with some of your points, but some are just extremely harsh and/or totally disagreeable. I think you should just stick to watching Japanese anime, if that's the type of movies you're looking for. I'm really glad these do not mimic every aspect of anime. I love anime, but I like to see these DC films have their own flavor and style. I hate what Marvel is doing with their DTV animated movies, where the animation is just awful CG or awful wanna-be anime.

I never used that word. 'Quality' exists beyond that word. 'Quality' is an idea that does not involve that word. A good animated film is a good animated film despite the language it is originally made in. There is no dodging the bullet by creating a false barrier between these works by calling one 'anime' and the other not.

 

[Bat-Fan Beyond]

Quoting this post.



I never used that word. 'Quality' exists beyond that word. 'Quality' is an idea that does not involve that word. A good animated film is a good animated film despite the language it is originally made in. There is no dodging the bullet by creating a false barrier between these works by calling one 'anime' and the other not.

Okay, and not to repeat a previous debate we've had, but it seems like a lot of the stuff you are into is, for lack of a better term, "anime." And although I will definitely give the credit due to some of the techniques used in that style of animation, I do not think that all animation needs to mimic anime in order to be considered "quality" animation. In my opinion, a majority of anime keeps repeating itself over and over again design-wise. I'm not an expert, but beyond only a handful of unique manga/anime design artists, I can't distinguish one from another, because, unfortunately, and I say this with only slight exaggeration... it all looks alike. I know you're speaking more about the animation techniques than the designs, but still, I think it's sometimes difficult for animators to seperate the two, because the designs somewhat dictate, or at least influence, the style and flow of the animation.

I really do believe there are limits to what the WB/DC animators can accomplish, whether through budget or time restraints or whatever, so I cut them some slack and don't expect everything to look like Akira or Ghost in the Shell (still two of my personal favorites). I love traditional 2D cel animation, and I love a lot of anime, but I also like seeing something unique and not typical or blatantly copied by anime. I certainly don't mind animators drawing inspiration from those higher quality animated productions, but I don't want the styles, designs and every technique associated with anime to just be adapted and used on American produced superheroes. I know most, if not all, of this DC stuff is outsourced to Japan or Korea, but it's still American produced and it should have its own unique flavor. Out of practically all American animation on television today, in which only The Legend of Korra is truly impressive, I think the DTV animated movies by WB/DC are awesome in comparison. It beats all that overused CG Pixar-like stuff Disney and Dreamworks keeps putting out or the wacky crap that Cartoon Network and DisneyXD airs on television.

Anyway, I'm happy with most of the stuff we get from WB/DC with these movies. I do have my own criticisims, and there are a few movies that I just hated for one reason or another (I seem to be mostly particular about character designs, because that's what draws me in first), but for the most part, I love what we get from them.

 

[RoryWilliams]

So a few sites went to the premier and reported that the post-credits scene does indeed set up

Spoiler

Throne of Atlantis

.

 

[I_Spyral]

Unless it's so bad it sticks out like a sore thumb, I just can't get hung up on animation "quality." Space Dandy has really stellar animation, but it's garbage on every other level.

 

[KYO'NYUU IMOUTO]

And although I will definitely give the credit due to some of the techniques used in that style of animation, I do not think that all animation needs to mimic anime in order to be considered "quality" animation.

The problem is the lack of variety in these films. 'Anime' is not a style, it's shorthand for the English word 'animation'. That's all there is to it. I know westerners (and western journalism) has sort of deluded themselves into thinking there's some sort of gulf between their imaginary rules of what is possible in American animation and what is considered something entirely different, but there isn't. These are silly mental blocks completely irrelevant to creating a good work.

In my opinion, a majority of anime keeps repeating itself over and over again design-wise.

That describes these movies pretty well.

As unsightly as these designs are to look at the major problem is how they're used. Nobody ever breaks from the model to express anything. The characters merely stand around in awful layouts with no use of foreground, background, or the surrounding environments to make dialogue scenes or action scenes interesting.

I know you're speaking more about the animation techniques than the designs, but still, I think it's sometimes difficult for animators to seperate the two, because the designs somewhat dictate, or at least influence, the style and flow of the animation.

That isn't how animation is supposed to work. The character designs are only a tool to tell the story you want each cut to convey. There's no use of lighting or interesting layouts. There's no attempt to use abstract drawings of the characters (whether in motion or not) to express how the characters feel on an emotional level. That is a manner of storytelling far more effective then dialogue.

A big problem is the lack of communication between director and the key animators. The directors don't understand the abilities of their staff nor do they offer creative freedom to the key animators actually doing the legwork. These films are in production for over a year and have three-to-four million dollars to toy around with. Considering how often the same studios are used this is plenty of time to study and learn.

I really do believe there are limits to what the WB/DC animators can accomplish, whether through budget or time restraints or whatever, so I cut them some slack and don't expect everything to look like Akira or Ghost in the Shell (still two of my personal favorites).

Eh, Akira is nothing special. Ootomo's directing was weak and I think the film squirmed around just for the sake of having the characters squirm around.

I love traditional 2D cel animation, and I love a lot of anime, but I also like seeing something unique and not typical or blatantly copied by anime. I certainly don't mind animators drawing inspiration from those higher quality animated productions, but I don't want the styles, designs and every technique associated with anime to just be adapted and used on American produced superheroes.

That's the problem, though. These films don't have a style. They're like watching a fight scene on Smallville. About sixty-two minutes into Justice League: War

Spoiler

Darkseid is punching Wonder Woman into the ground. His punches look like a character model flailing his arms around. There's no sense of impact as he connects with Wonder Woman, there is no sense of impact as his fights sear through the air.

Those don't take theatrical-level budgets to accomplish, it takes creativity.

I think a big problem is that these films are used to solving problems by simply using higher drawing counts to solve the problem. They're soft, like Rocky at the beginning of Rocky III, they don't have that nasty look in the eye that says "this is a man who knows how to stop a nuclear device from going off with a stick of chewed bubble gum and a toothpick." When kids with Adobe Flash at home are making better animation in their spare time then paid professionals I think we have an issue.


So, I'm done with them. The emotional investment has been rung out of me and I'm okay with that. There are plenty of better things I can do with my time. This is good.

 

[coluanprime]

Definitely Meh: The voice acting wasn't very good, though I liked Billy. It was odd seeing a lot of the Young Justice designs recolored and reused. Most notably

Spoiler

Serling Roquette, Cat Grant and T.O. Morrow. Wonder Woman really bothered me, she acted like a 4 year-old, not naive, just stupid and petulant.

 

[Lighthammer]

@ Bat-Fan Beyond

Though the art stylings are based on New 52, I was very much of the impression this movie is NOT set inside New 52.

Since this isn't spoiler, I won't spoiler tag it, but artistically what I was talking about with Superman was his neck muscles make him look like a competition level body builder. Even in New 52, his muscle build always looks more lean cut even if he is generally sporting pretty big biceps.

Green Lantern in particular doesn't (at least not that I've seen) have the glowing green accents of the core logo in his uniform. That's the sort of frill Kyle Raynor would use, not Hal Jordan. Meh, maybes its far past time we have a movie that highlights another Green Lantern besides Hal Jordan and John Stewart so we CAN see the contrast.

@ Jacob T. Paschal

I'm going to have to REALLY side Bat-Fan Beyond and Neo-God on this; you're doing the same thing you do on every American Animation. You're so caught up in the culture, delusion and infatuation or Japanese culture that you're not giving anything else a fair chance. You've already determined that that's the right way in your mind and everything else is wrong and there's NO room for other things to compete. I'm sorry to call you on this, but you've been doing it since you were kid and its manifested into a way of life into your young adulthood. I've seen it throughout your entire tenure on this site and in recent years, you're now almost notorious for these reactions.

There's a lot of room to be fairly critical of this film and its certainly no where near a slam dunk, but the way you weigh it down with your comments, you make it feel as though they re-released the 70s version of Super Friends as new material with the same level of story telling and animation.

(PS To be fair, I do find it admirable you got involved in posting on this site at the age you did, I do HONESTLY mean that, it probably helped your writing skills a lot and that HONESTLY does show).

 

[Alex20]

Definitely one of the better movies they have done. I didn't care for Justice League: Origin but this kept me entertained from start to finish. It wasn't unnecessarily violent like The Flashpoint Paradox and didn't have dumb moments like in Justice League Doom where they were talking in space and moving faster than light.

Spoiler

Switching out Aquaman for Shazam was the right move. In the movie, it made sense for Shazam to appear and helped add to the story because of his connection to Cyborg while in the comic, when I saw Aquaman's appearance, I was thinking how fake it seemed for another superhero to again just pop out of nowhere and show off his powers.

 

[KYO'NYUU IMOUTO]

@ Jacob T. Paschal

I'm going to have to REALLY side Bat-Fan Beyond and Neo-God on this; you're doing the same thing you do on every American Animation. You've already determined that that's the right way in your mind and everything else is wrong and there's NO room for other things to compete. I'm sorry to call you on this, but you've been doing it since you were kid and its manifested into a way of life into your young adulthood. I've seen it throughout your entire tenure on this site and in recent years, you're now almost notorious for these reactions.

There's a lot of room to be fairly critical of this film and its certainly no where near a slam dunk, but the way you weigh it down with your comments, you make it feel as though they re-released the 70s version of Super Friends as new material with the same level of story telling and animation.

(PS To be fair, I do find it admirable you got involved in posting on this site at the age you did, I do HONESTLY mean that, it probably helped your writing skills a lot and that HONESTLY does show).

I will thank you for believing what you are saying is out of sincere care, but I really do not see what you are trying to get at. I have focused my argument on why this work lacks impact solely based on merits specific to no one work, no one industry, or no one people. The terms I am being accused of us holding irrational allegiance to are not used in my criticism. No argument is worth its salt if we begin to rely on that sort of thing.

You're calling me close-minded because I don't like a work. I've explained why I don't like this work, but you haven't explained why I'm the bad guy here. Two men on the internet calling one another close-minded isn't going to be much of a conversation worth having.

You're so caught up in the culture, delusion and infatuation or Japanese culture that you're not giving anything else a fair chance.

This is entirely incorrect. I have the knowledge and I use it openly, but my only concern is quality. That is all there is to this.

 

[CyberCubed]

Spoiler

So is there cursing in this movie just for the sake of it like some of the other films? I already know there's one scene where a random guy says that Wonder Woman dresses like "a whore" and then she uses her lasso of truth on him.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Yes there is cussing in the film. I liked that aspect. Seemed very organic.

 

[Lighthammer]

@ Jacob

I feel like in reading your review of this flick you're just comparing and contrasting it too much against Anime. Though its not unfair to contrast against what other cultures are doing, my point is it feels like you're throwing the movie under the bus without acknowledging some of what it did well.

You can see my breakdown in the last thread; I was actually REALLY looking forward for this flick and am more then a bit disappointed in it. Its certainly not CO2E where it exceeded my expectations. I won't deny, my "review" of Batman was a bit prejudice of nature, but I acknowledge that. That's one thing we always have to take with us through subscribing to Jahori's Window. Know you'll have a predisposition for something that may or may not be shared, but understand it exists and the reactions to it.

This movie wasn't a smash hit, but it was still good IMHO. Its worth the money, easily.

Neo-God, Bat-Fan Beyond and I have spared a lot through the Young Justice threads and I'd like to think good times are usually had because those points are seen, made and acknowledged. Particularly though, this is why I have so much respect for Yojimbo, he's one of the guys around here that has such a well grounded sense of reality about him that its never hard to interact with his comments or insights.

 

[suss2it]

A question for James, why create another pre-release discussion when WB already released this film on Tuesday through iTunes?

Anyway, it was an OK movie, it entertained me well enough. Wasn't really a fan of some the dialogue (mostly Wonder Woman's) but otherwise is was fine. The character designs and action scenes were the best thing about the movie (especially Wonder Woman). Really liked how diverse Hal Jordan's constructs were since I've been conditioned to only expect beams and bubbles due to JLU's John. The story itself was kinda boring, not surprising since the source material wasn't exactly riveting either. I have way more hope in the next JL movie which is clearly gonna be an adaptation of

Spoiler

"Throne of Atlantis"

which was really good and Johns' best Justice League story before "Trinity War" (haven't read that yet so can't judge it).

 

[Yojimbo]

A question for James, why create another pre-release discussion when WB already released this film on Tuesday through iTunes?

I'm not James obviously, but the reason is the main release is still February 4. And thus, everyone here should still use spoiler tags and not openly give things away... but if you still need to James said so here:

Since the early digital release is just that - an early two-week preview via legal downloading - the Justice League: War talkbacks will still go up on it's official release date of Tuesday, February 4th, 2014.

 

[Lighthammer]

I'm not James obviously, but the reason is the main release is still February 4. And thus, everyone here should still use spoiler tags and not openly give things away... but if you still need to James said so here:

Just my two cents: this is obviously the first time this happened but this feels really wonky. We're having a main discussion in a prediscussion about a main discussion.

I can see both sides of the coin, but the whole thing feels like a disconnect.

That being said, just to chime in on this note, I'm ALWAYS able to get the DCU releases early because places like Walmart (especially my local one) never honors the release dates; They put the shipper out the day they get it (appearently no one knows how to read what is no doubt a florescent DO NOT SELL BEFORE DATE sticker). On almost every release in the past, I was late to the convo because I had watched the video already, already formed my opinions, already discussed things with some local friends and the discussion was already old news by the time Toonzone started the official discussion thread. Since up until this release it was really taboo to discuss it, its always been a stupidly weird position for me.

So......

One side of me agrees and understands about trying to maintain the level of professionalism the site attracts but the other side of me is always vexed that I want to talk about the new news generated by the release and CAN'T through the great venue and the news is old by the time the venue catches up.

Grumble, grumble --- I just never know what to think about the situation because I strongly agree and disagree with both positions.

 

[Yojimbo]

Just my two cents: this is obviously the first time this happened but this feels really wonky. We're having a main discussion in a prediscussion about a main discussion.

No, it's not. Digital releases have been ahead of main physical releases for the DCU line for awhile already. Users come to the news thread and post thoughts in spoiler tags. suss2it or someone else always brings the same question up and we say the same thing.

Since up until this release it was really taboo to discuss it, its always been a stupidly weird position for me.

Again. Users can discuss all they want, just in spoiler tags. It's not the much of an inconvenience. In fact, if you do so then stew on what you said and how others replied for two weeks then for the main talkback thread, you may have more to say and/or had a change of opinion.

 

[Lighthammer]

I was of the impression this was the first time DC was doing the digital release legally. They always get leaked weeks ahead of time, but did they actually digitally release like this before?

I know *I* brought this up before and you and I discussed it before and I generally understand and agree but also disagree with the stance (both at the same time), but I do realize the practical reasons for the need for the approach.

That being said, stewing over it for two weeks actually tends to mean I never get around to posting my thoughts on it. Its quite the opposite. Once its not news for me anymore, its not a topic of discussion and the only time I jump in to discuss is usually at the tail end if I read someone has an interesting point towards the end of all the discussions I hadn't thought about it or inspires a thread of thought. I'd imagine at least some others are like that.

 

[Yojimbo]

I was of the impression this was the first time DC was doing the digital release legally. They always get leaked weeks ahead of time, but did they actually digitally release like this before?

Yes. Most recently, The Flashpoint Paradox released digital on July 19 and the Blu-Ray combo released on July 30.

 

[Lighthammer]

Yes. Most recently, The Flashpoint Paradox released digital on July 19 and the Blu-Ray combo released on July 30.

Well THAT explains that. You might recall I was REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY late to that one. For some reason I was expecting Flashpoint Paradox to be released at the end of August, not the end of July. I marked my calendar as such so I must have gotten a wrong date somewhere. This would be precisely why I thought this was a new thing.