Marvel's Avengers Assemble "The Avengers Protocol, Parts 1 - 2" Series Premiere Talkback (Spoilers)

Rate and Comment - Avengers Assemble "The Avengers Protocol, Parts 1 - 2"


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From a marketing perspective, Iron Man is more popular, and a British kid in a focus group hates Captain America because he hates America. So you can't make him the leader :p .

I doubt they think of the international market that much when making these shows, they sure as hell don't think of us when the merchandise comes out. ;)

Also I wonder how electromagnets meant to keep shrapnel out of a heart can heal the Red Skull's mystery illness. :p
 
Also I wonder how electromagnets meant to keep shrapnel out of a heart can heal the Red Skull's mystery illness. :p

Quite simple, old boy - the degenerative disease in the Red Skull's blood stems from an incomplete version of the Super-Soldier Formula. The regenerative abilities of the SSF reside in the marrow of the bone, which is what produces the additive to the blood; in the past, Captain America once had his blood filtered of all SSF elements, and the DNA changes in his marrow eventually restored his condition.

The electromagnetic field of the armor artificially stimulates the iron present in the blood, allowing it to not only circulate faster, but stimulates the SSF-defunct marrow of the Red Skull's body, thereby restoring the level of SSF in his blood, which fights to repair the effect of its degeneration when it was lacking. Without the armor's electromagnetic field to stimulate the marrow blood production, the levels of SSF in the Red Skull's body would slowly fade, and his cells go into degenerative withdrawal as before.

(And some of that is from the comics - the marrow production thing, anyways. The rest is an extension of actual biochemistry and a dash or three of MU psuedoscience. "We've replaced actual science with Marvel psuedoscience in this coffee shop's coffee, and the customers couldn't tell the difference!")
 
Yeah but they didn't even try to explain it during the actual show itself, it just asked us to accept it at face value. XD
 
I doubt they think of the international market that much when making these shows, they sure as hell don't think of us when the merchandise comes out. ;)

The explanation comes from Josh Fine though. It wasn't the only reason, but it was one of them.
 
Another reason Josh Fine gave was that Iron Man actually was the original leader of the Avengers when they first formed.

Doesn't excuse the shows hammering in that "Iron Man has to lead" though.
 
Good start for the show.
Had some minor animation moments that felt off but nothing major.
Nice to see J. Jonah Jameson and Fury. Plus a reference about Spidey.
I want to know who will join Skul´s Cabal.
Very interested to see more of this show.

Darth Cygnus
 
Another reason Josh Fine gave was that Iron Man actually was the original leader of the Avengers when they first formed.

Doesn't excuse the shows hammering in that "Iron Man has to lead" though.

Maybe Iron Man is a better leader. He did win Civil War which was Cap's fault.
 
Maybe Iron Man is a better leader. He did win Civil War which was Cap's fault.
I'd say that was less Cap's fault and more the writer's fault but this isn't the topic for that.

I can't say anything Iron Man did in this premier as leader was better or more accomplished than anything Cap would've done. Actually, Cap was the best part of the premier for me. He had a good voice, his screentime wasn't filled to the brim with dumb quips and snide remarks, and he seemed much more level headed and nice than the rest of his fellow Avengers.
 
I like Charlie Adler's MODOK a lot. Glad to see he's voicing a character in this show. He previously did Dr. Doom and a number of other various in Super Hero Squad. Also Cobra Commander in Renegades.
 
The following are my thoughts (aka COMPLAINTS) about Part 2 of The Avengers Protocol...

1) Okay, why is Clint acting scared when Thor uses the 'wind tunnel' to accelerate Natasha's car? And why is Clint constantly being knocked to the ground by Hulk all the time? Natasha is thrown into the air by Hulk and lands gracefully, but Clint (who is extremely agile, remember!) falls to the ground? Honestly, it seems like they're playing the "beat up the snarker" game, which I HATE.

Digression - Natasha is still the perfect hypercompetent robot Mary Sue (note her landing gracefully while Clint lands hard). And we all know she won't be portrayed as having any imperfections or inadequacies or lack-of-hypercompetencies at all, because that would apparently be sexism, and I'm sure the show will be very nice to Falcon because if the show ever portrays him in anything less than a perfectly flattering light it would be considered racism! Cap of course is being portrayed as PERFECT... I am anticipating that Hawkeye is AA's designated comic-relief/lets-have-bad-things-happen-to-him guy. Which really sucks.

2) Tony again having the Idiot Ball shoved down his throat and BREAKING UP THE AVENGERS AGAIN in the first part of the second episode and doing so out of "I nearly got you guys all killed in one day!!!" angst. Again, the entire episode seems like it was written to discredit Tony's ability to come up with a plan and execute it... even though it has been shown on numerous occasions that he IS capable at this task. And then suddenly he manages to show how competent he is in the second part of the episode (around the 12/15 minute mark). Really, this on-again-off-again tactical proficiency is extremely annoying. Please - CONSISTENCY. I mean we have Red Skull going on about how Tony is an incompetent leader and Tony being an idiot one minute... and THEN Tony suddenly comes up with a brilliant plan the next. And with the hyperkinetic pace of the show it is really jarring. I mean, I think the first two episodes were meant to be something about Tony tearing himself up with the responsibilities of leadership after making a bad and hotheaded decision etc etc and all that usual tripe and the Red Skull just trying to exploit Tony's self-doubt but if this was the intention then the show just handled this very, very poorly.

3) Complaints aside, I think Thor is better in this show than AEMH. This Thor is a bit warmer and more jovial, which is nice. And whilst I think the script is being mean to Clint, Clint's characterization is pretty good.

4) Back to the complaints... hyperkinetic pacing! Oh god this show is hyperkinetic EVEN WHEN WATCHED BY SOMEONE AMPED UP ON STIMULANTS (literally).

5) Is it just me or is Tony's voice sounding better in this episode? Also, I like how the Avengers Tower included a well-stocked bar in the background. Call me old-fashioned but I like my Tony with a relatively alcohol-saturated lifestyle and even if they can't show it explicitly, a few little hints here and there help.


Look, from these first two episodes, I am extremely disappointed so far. It is far, far below the standards of AEMH.
 
Just watched the first two episodes, kept my expectations low in light of the mixed-to-negative reactions the show has generated. Speaking for myself and only for myself (and not the good fan community of Baltimore, MD) I would say this two part debut was...okay. Thoughts -

1) The voice actors all did a reasonably good job with what they were given - and to be fair they all had a few clunky lines. I don't even mind Adrian Pasdar as Iron Man/Tony Stark, even though I prefer Robert Hays (90s series; for nostalgiac reasons), Marc Worden (Ultimate Avengers 1 & 2, Invincible Iron Man, Planet Hulk) and even Matthew Mercer (Rise of the Technovore). Kind of funny that we have yet another former Hulk voice actor, Travis Willingham of Superhero Squad, voicing Thor (as he did for USM); Rick Wasserman, EMH's Thor, had previously voiced Hulk for "Planet Hulk" (now all we need is to have Fred Tatasciore voice Thor). Hearing Liam O'Brien as Red Skull I kept picturing his Nightcrawler from W&TXM in a recording booth saying the Red Skull's lines with a voice director telling him to "be more evil". ;)

2) The animation gets the job done, but going back & forth from regular screen to wide screen and comic book panel screens wasn't really necessary. I must say though Black Widow's new design is much more fetching than her EMH design.

3) I can live with Iron Man as the leader (if I were a Marvel character I would definitely rather follow him than Wolverine ;) ) but Iron Man's characterization was a bit off as his IQ went up and down like a seesaw. The other characterizations were fine but seem to be coasting on the audience already having a pre-established knowledge of who these characters are and how they relate to each other in order to go for the "hit the ground running" approach (what Mad Slasher called the "hyperkinetic pacing"), much like Wolverine & the X-Men and Young Justice (in YJ's case more the JLA than the younger heroes, which is why the JLA heroes had little to no real characterization or depth, but that's for the DC animation board). Some shows and movies can get away with that approach, others not so much. Personally I'm finding it's an approach I don't really care for and would've preferred the 2-part pilot slowing it down a bit.

4) Red Skull & MODOK stealing Iron Man's armor in that fashion probably shouldn't work in light of how the armor operates, but the shot of them ripping the arc reactor out of Tony's chest was pretty chilling.

5) It would have been cooler to hear Roger Craig Smith play Red Skull in his Cap voice with Liam O'Brien voicing Cap in his Red Skull voice as opposed to swapping the voices with the bodies.

Overall... I'd say I'm neutral towards this new series for right now. Don't love it, don't hate it, but need to see more episodes before I can truly judge it as a its own entity.
 
I disagree, the new show should try telling their own stories and not copying what EMH did.

I agree, but that's not what I meant. Of course they need to do their own stories, but if the writing is off, or sub-par, it doesn't really matter...

What I meant was the writers in EMH set the bar so high. Yost knew the characters, and I feel captured the classic spirit of everyone as far as The Avengers went. The AA writers should try and meet the same standards of quality. The first two episodes of AA did not accomplish this (imo).

Hawkeye is getting the Michalengelo treatment and made to look like the team's comedy relief. This is forced, and not in line with the character. Sure, Hawkeye can quip and make sarcastic remarks but to be reduced to the butt of all of Hulk's jokes was already getting old.
 
Digression - Natasha is still the perfect hypercompetent robot Mary Sue (note her landing gracefully while Clint lands hard). And we all know she won't be portrayed as having any imperfections or inadequacies or lack-of-hypercompetencies at all, because that would apparently be sexism, and I'm sure the show will be very nice to Falcon because if the show ever portrays him in anything less than a perfectly flattering light it would be considered racism! Cap of course is being portrayed as PERFECT... I am anticipating that Hawkeye is AA's designated comic-relief/lets-have-bad-things-happen-to-him guy. Which really sucks.

The thing is that in EMH the Wasp had imperfections and was called out of them multiple times, and she was the only female on the team for a long time. There's no excuse for that to happen here, and after watching part 2 I'm in agreement with you.

If the staff was so worried about sexism they should've gotten a second female character on the team. There's many candidates. Ms. Marvel/Captain Marvel, Scarlet Witch, the Wasp, She-Hulk . . . hell I'd take a Thundra trying to reform herself over what they're doing here. All of that would not only balance things out but it would have given "permission" to portray Black Widow as having flaws herself.

EDIT: Also, I feel personally that MOA is completely missing the point on the Hulk punching/flicking his teammates. What made that moment so hilarious in The Avengers is that it was unexpected yet made complete sense because there was justification and build-up to the literal punch-line. There's nothing like that here. Hulk is just punching and flicking away (mostly against Hawkeye) and it's just not funny. It's a superficial attempt to ape the movie without understanding how the movie pulled it off.
 
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Hawkeye is getting the Michalengelo treatment and made to look like the team's comedy relief. This is forced, and not in line with the character. Sure, Hawkeye can quip and make sarcastic remarks but to be reduced to the butt of all of Hulk's jokes was already getting old.

Agreed entirely. I hope this is an anomaly but I know my hope is unlikely to be true.

The thing is that in EMH the Wasp had imperfections and was called out of them multiple times, and she was the only female on the team for a long time. There's no excuse for that to happen here, and after watching part 2 I'm in agreement with you.

If the staff was so worried about sexism they should've gotten a second female character on the team. There's many candidates. Ms. Marvel/Captain Marvel, Scarlet Witch, the Wasp, She-Hulk . . . hell I'd take a Thundra trying to reform herself over what they're doing here. All of that would not only balance things out but it would have given "permission" to portray Black Widow as having flaws herself.

EDIT: Also, I feel personally that MOA is completely missing the point on the Hulk punching/flicking his teammates. What made that moment so hilarious in The Avengers is that it was unexpected yet made complete sense because there was justification and build-up to the literal punch-line. There's nothing like that here. Hulk is just punching and flicking away (mostly against Hawkeye) and it's just not funny. It's a superficial attempt to ape the movie without understanding how the movie pulled it off.

Thank you. I am entirely in agreement with you here.
 
Agreed entirely. I hope this is an anomaly but I know my hope is unlikely to be true.

Thank you. I am entirely in agreement with you here.

They're not going to make fun of Black Widow or Falcon because they're the lone woman and the lone minority. Making fun of the Hulk or Thor will just result in violence of the potentially extreme sort in-show, and there'd be a huge meta backlash if they made fun of Captain America. That just leaves Iron Man and Hawkeye, and Iron Man's supposed to be the leader, so . . . that leaves Hawkeye as the comedic relief character. Problem is, as it's been mentioned, Hawkeye is not an ideal comedic relief character. His personality doesn't mesh with it, and since he's the closest thing to being a "normal guy" on the team, the fact that he's getting picked on, particularly by the Hulk, seems to scream "the rich and powerful picking on the weak". I don't think that was the conscious theme MOA was going for, the fact of the matter is if they want a comedic relief character it was going to be Hawkeye by process of elimination as I just showed there. But there's unfortunate implications with Hawkeye being the butt of jokes. IMO, they would have been better off without a comedic relief character and took the approach EMH did, in which everyone took their turn being the goat of the team.

The thing with Black Widow being the only significant female character (and she's not even going to be "on the team" consistently) may unfortunately be better for the show in the long run. MOA's track record of female characters in their cartoons is startlingly lacking, usually the women in their shows range from "just there" (every female character in Generator Rex, Mary Jane in USM) to "Mary Sue" (Black Widow and Vicky/Jinja in Monsuno) to "extremely annoying" (Gwen Tennyson in Ben 10, White Tiger in USM, Medea in Monsuno) or some variation/combination of the three. The only female character I've felt that MOA has ever pulled off decently was Charmcaster in Ben 10 and that's because Charmcaster had a charismatic evil about her that made her memorable in a good way. This is really, really sad, especially as recent Marvel shows pre-Loeb (EMH pre-MOA, Spectacular Spider-Man, Wolverine & The X-Men, Iron Man: Armored Adventures) all had at least one well-rounded female character. And if you go through a lot of the good action cartoons from the last 10 years, from TMNT 2003 to a number of DC productions to anime like Gurren Lagann and Fullmetal Alchemist (hell, even Naruto/Naruto Shippuden and Bleach, much-maligned for their female characters, the shows and the manga they're based off from still try to write them well, even if they fail much of the time), this gets even more pathetic.

From the looks of it MOA isn't even trying anymore to write a decent female character whether villainous or good or somewhere in-between. The cast is going to be strictly male besides the occurrences of Black Widow dropping in. Again, that might actually make the show better but when you get down to it, it's just plain sad that they're not even going to try. And I bet they wouldn't have Black Widow involved either if she hadn't been in the movie which pretty much forced them to include her since the cast is sticking close to the recent movie. But they solved that "issue" by making her a part-timer so they can write her out of the show whenever they want to.

I know that people are going to say that "boys in the target demo aren't going to be interested in female characters". I WAS in the target demo at one point in time, and I remember owning female action figures and being interested in several of the female characters that were in the shows I watched. Not all boys are adverse to female characters and this practice of eliminating the women from the cast (other than Widow because they have to include one woman or they're "sexist") is a disservice.

Really, I would've just put the Wasp or Ms. Marvel/Captain Marvel on the team so that way even if I were afraid of being called "sexist" having two women on the team would've "granted permission" to portray them as more well-rounded characters with flaws because then the ratio of men-to-women wouldn't have been so lopsided. The Wasp doesn't need Ant-Man/Giant-Man around to be a good character, EMH proved that during that long period in the show where Hank had no spot on the team at all. Yes, they're connected and both characters are richer because of that connection, but it is not absolutely essential. And Ms. Marvel/Captain Marvel is a powerhouse that would add more power diversity and finesse to the team as well as Carol Danvers doesn't always go for brute force, plus her military mind-set could lead to interesting conversations and argument between her and Iron Man. Imagine the conversations between Carol Danvers and Tony Stark when Stark was rushing through all of those strategies and attack plans, that could've really helped both episodes.

Finally, off-topic, I really, really wish Bruce Banner would have a role in this show. Again, MOA is missing the point. People liked the Hulk in the Avengers because of Ruffalo, not because of the CGI behemoth. I'd go into more detail again but I've grown sick and tired of writing this post so I'm just going to end it here.
 
So this show is sexist, too - that's enough for me to write it off completely. Good luck trying to salvage this mess, Disney, because you're the ones who ultimately made it here.
 
So this show is sexist, too - that's enough for me to write it off completely. Good luck trying to salvage this mess, Disney, because you're the ones who ultimately made it here.

Well, honestly - you should watch it and make an informed judgement, rather than going off of what any of us write here.
 
So this show is sexist, too - that's enough for me to write it off completely. Good luck trying to salvage this mess, Disney, because you're the ones who ultimately made it here.

Its kinda soon to assume that. Even if Black Widow is a Mary Sue, that might not be the case with future female characters.
 
Its kinda soon to assume that. Even if Black Widow is a Mary Sue, that might not be the case with future female characters.

And it may not be the case with the Black Widow moving forward. One instance (Two parts, one big episode) doesn't make a trend.
 
The Assemble lineup comes off as a casual "yeah, here's the movie cast plus the Falcon because why not" decision. Keep in mind that Wasp was the only major female hero in Avengers EMH for awhile, though. The series' expansion took time. It doesn't seem fair to compare what EMH delivered pretty far down the line to where Assemble is when it's brand new.
 

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