The Dark Ages of Marvel Animation are over.

[CaptainCanada]

Loved the 90s Spider-Man and X-Men; the other shows I didn't see as a kid. Old-style animation, sure, but they're quality nonetheless.

 

[Antiyonder]

Mod Reminder: Lets keep our disagreements on the subject respectful and civil. If you want to voice your dislike towards Marvel's 90s or 2000s programming do so without name calling or any other rude remarks. And finally, keep your opinion on the show and not the fans.

Though I'm not a fan of Superhero Squad or Spectacular Spider-Man too much (they're a bit too juvenile for me, personally), I'll still say they're at least better crafted than their 90s counterparts. My main concern is DC fans must feel like they're getting the shaft. Shows like Wolverine and the X-Men and Iron Man: Armored Adventures take the franchises in bold new directions, with series-spanning storylines that, up until now, have been unheard of for superhero animation. They're only getting Brave and the Bold (another show I'm not a fan of for similar reasons). I'd personally love to see a Batman show in the same vein as WATX or IM:AA, it could definitely lend itself to that type of serial format. I do think Marvel finally found their calling, for the most part. Hopefully Thor and Avengers follow the same way and don't disappoint. I'm definitely looking forward to Thor.

The problem isn't that they want a line of serial shows from DC, but for some DC Comics programming outside of the main two. Regardless whether the 90s or the 2000s are better/worse, Marvel shows a willingness to go outside Spider-Man and The X-Men.

 

[Barbossa]

Another reason I love the current toons is that they are vey ambitious and Marvel has taken a lot of risks with their shows which for most of them has paid off.
From wolverine leading the xmen , a teenage Iron man ,superhero squad, and teenage x men.These had fail written all over them but they are all great shows and they all have an audience.

The 90s toons played it safe most of the time apart from making she hulk a main character in the Hulk show season 2 which probably killed the show and the whole 90s Avengers show in way was a risk and we all know how that turned out, same for Spiderman unlimited.

Oh and the Iron man and Wolverine anime look great another good idea hopefully it pays off

 

[JeffBreakdown]

It is my humble opinion that Wolverine and The X-Men is way better than the 90's show. I just cant get past the terrible character design, lousy animation and often cheesy dialog. It hurts my eyes seeing it now.

How can you HATE the character design of the 90s X-Men show? they were basically ripped off of the pages!!!!!! i love them and i got used to the streamlined wolverine and the x-men designs pretty quickly, but i'd say as far as design goes 90's x-men DESTROYS x-men evo designs.

 

[Wonderwall]

Well it depends really if you like the 90s X men designs as static drawings or as a character design for a cartoon. I like Jim Lee's drawings as still pictures in a comic. But that style is really bad when it has to be translated over to animation. One is it's nowhere near as good as Jim's and second it made the animation suffer so it failed as character design for a show.

 

[Schuyler]

If the 90s cartoons had the budget and technology, things would be different. Thats why I don't get people picking on them, saying how crappy they are to today's shows.

 

[Wonderwall]

They might look better but the designs still don't lend themselves well to animation. No TV cartoons have feature film budgets and there were shows that were on the same time as X Men and Spider Man that had better animation but still had the same tech. Would they be different, sure but they wouldn't look the best they could because the designs just don't work.

Edit:

Forgot about the Fleisher Superman which was made in the 40s yet looked and animated better, so I don't buy the money and tech excuse.

 

[macattack]

The 90's weren't a dark age for Marvel animation but neither was the last decade either. If anything I'd consider the 80's to be the dark ages of Marvel animation, but that's just me.

The 90's in general took a lot more risks in storytelling and (in some cases) violence than the 80's cartoons that preceded. The first season of the Incredible Hulk has a great 13-episode storyline for the first season with many subplots that come together in the end and was perhaps the most violent. Spider-Man accomplished incredible things despite bad animation and plentiful censorship and was the most popular Marvel toon of them all. X-Men is also fondly remembered despite its flaws as well. Iron Man and Fantastic Four suffered from horrendous first seasons and had improved second seasons. Everything is a major step up from the 80's.

That being said the 90's toons frequently had animation problems. Spider-Man looked really cheap after the first season, and X-Men had problems from day one. Hulk got off easier for the first season, but animation quality absolutely collapsed in the second season. The character designs are highly detailed which was part of the problem, but another is that there just wasn't enough money.

The last decade's toons are generally better. X-Men: Evolution stumbled out of the gate but got good eventually. Spectacular Spider-Man is a classic. Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes rubs me the wrong way in general but the second half is a lot better than the first. None of those three have had any off-model moments or choppy animation, which means Marvel (or Sony in Spectacular's case) budgeted right. And Super Hero Squad has its moments but has animation problems and occasionally sloppy and uninspired writing.

 

[W.C.Reaf]

Look at other 90s shows like Batman TAS, Gargoyles, or even SWAT Kats, they look fine today (mostly) and a lot better animated than X-Men TAS even with the same level of technology. It's the simpler designs that allow them to be better animated, not money or tech.

There’s only so much that can be blamed on the time they were made in. I also don’t really like the Lee designs from the 90s, but that’s just my opinion.

 

[AlgeaX]

If the 90s cartoons had the budget and technology, things would be different. That's why I don't get people picking on them, saying how crappy they are to today's shows.

I disagree that it's an issue of technology. Just look at the old Fleischer Superman* cartoons, the animation on them puts the 90s Spidey and X toons to shame, and they were made in the forties!

Besides, just compare the 90s Marvel toons to their own contemporaries like Gargoyles or B:TAS.

*Public Domain

 

[Gokou Ruri]

I don't really see how Spectacular Spider-Man is a juvenile show? Definitely not on the same level as Superhero Squad.

Oh, it's no where near as bad as SHS. It just doesn't seem to take itself as seriously as other current Marvel shows do is all (besides SHS, I mean). Maybe it's their take on the villains, or some of the subject matter (like the typical high school problems you'd find in every other teenage hero show that seemed to over-saturate this decade)

The problem isn't that they want a line of serial shows from DC, but for some DC Comics programming outside of the main two. Regardless whether the 90s or the 2000s are better/worse, Marvel shows a willingness to go outside Spider-Man and The X-Men.

Also a fair point. Especially since we just got done with The Batman. Yet another Batman cartoon probably felt a bit repetitive for some people. Marvel's shown a lot of faith and creativity when it's come to these cartoons this decade and shows no signs of slowing down anytime soon. They can take risks and it tends to pay off for them. I think the biggest risk DC's took in the past few decades was Batman Beyond, but that was still, well, Batman.

 

[Schuyler]

I disagree that it's an issue of technology. Just look at the old Fleischer Superman* cartoons, the animation on them puts the 90s Spidey and X toons to shame, and they were made in the forties!

Besides, just compare the 90s Marvel toons to their own contemporaries like Gargoyles or B:TAS.

*Public Domain

I knew someone was going to bring up Batman:TAS, but people forget it was on the heels of the Batman movies coming out, so they put the time and money into it. Also about Superman of course it was better back then it was new and people put a lot of heart into it. Then with time people got lazy and budgets got lower and didn't help with some of the t.v slots Iron Man, Hulk, F4 all aired on a Sunday.

But when your a kid you don't think about animation, its the fun factor of the show your watching. Its all about the timing, all these super hero shows are blowing up cause of the movies simple fact. I'm just ranting lets get back to the topic, the 90s was the beginning of the start of the marvel boom, and it exploded in 00s with X-men the movie.

 

[Azeke]

Spectacular Spider-man was the only show that made me care about the animated Marvel. Everything else were and are sub-par in my opinion.

Seeing how Sony/Disney/Marvel treats it is not exactly my vision of coming out of crisis. It's more like a shining gem inside a long consecutive row of mediocre shows, and it's like they have absolutely no idea what to do with it.

 

[RONDC20]

WOW!!! I was not expecting this, But I just wanted to chime in. I agree and disagree with my points made here. What GregX said about how bad the 90s Spider-Man was and how brilliant Spectacular Spider-Man was spot on. I totally and completely agree with what he said.

I will address some of the other things that were said tomorrow as I am way too tired and sleepy to do it now.

FYI I am an equal DC and Marvel fan, meaning I love them both just about the same. I do not have a clear favorite, sometimes I may like one more than the other, but all in all I have equal love for both.

For those of you who say that that's not possible......IT IS!! I love DC and Marvel so equally that I have 2 favorite superheroes, not 1 , but 2. It's a tie between these 2 characters.

They are Batman from DC and Spider-Man from Marvel. I guess what it all boils down to is that I love Superheroes period. Ok well I'll post more in detail tomorrow.

 

[Arsenal]

This discussion of the 1990s Marvel shows vs. the last decade misses an important point.

Without the 1990s, we would not have Spectacular Spider-Man or Wolverine & the X-Men. The TAS's (X-Men, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Hulk et. al.) often had character designs that were difficult to animate. Their writing and character acting tended toward the histrionic, and most of the lesser known shows varied wildly in quality.

They were, in a word, imperfect. And I loved those shows. I didn't miss an episode of X-Men: TAS for years, even if my little brother needed to tape it.

But these shows created the audience that became the same people who went to see the X-Men and Spider-Man movies, legitimizing superheroes in the public's eye. (I should say re-legitimize because Tim Burton's Batman did the same thing beforehand.) Marvel had spent about a decade developing this audience on Saturday mornings. Then, when they needed them, they showed up at movie theaters.

Wolverine & the X-Men and Spectacular Spider-Man are each the second show for their titular star from the movie-hero wave. They were proceeded by X-Men: Evolution and the MTV Spider-Man. All four of these shows (and Fantastic Four: World Greatest Heroes, and Iron Man: Armored Adventures) depended partly on the momentum their movies created.

And those movies depended partly on the 1990s shows.

So I have no problem if you call this "the golden age" of Marvel Animation. Marvel has given us some top-flight stuff the last few years. But it's an exaggeration to call the 1990's the dark ages. Think of it, instead, as a germination phase.

 

[AlgeaX]

I will say this for the 90s, with the exception of The Spectacular Spider-Man and maybe the last two X-toons, the second season* of Iron Man is probably the best Marvel animated series ever!

*The first season is so radically different in both style an quality we should really treat them as separate shows.

 

[capfan1]

Why is there even a post like this?Its been done and never is settled because most people like the cheesy cartoony look of animation over the comic book style of animation.Its a matter of opinion and I like the more comic book style of animation.While others prefer cheesy cartoony style which is fine.I awaited the SSM squad to post comparisons and they didn't fail to do so.I still don't see how SSM is superior in animation and story compared to X-men animated series and most any other marvel series even the 80's.The character designs especially on peter parker are horrible but I guess thats what animation is like today.Those of you who say so what about how many shows spiderman 90's has compared to SSM that can be said about alot of series,the silver surfer and avengers united both wer'e stopped because of marvel's bankrupcy then.How many shows would there have been if marvel kept them going?Then again iron man had 2 seasons same with FF and hulk.Was it because those shows were'nt as good as spiderman and x-men?Probably so.It comes down to personal opinion and a thread like this is just wrong.

 

[RONDC20]

This discussion of the 1990s Marvel shows vs. the last decade misses an important point.

Without the 1990s, we would not have Spectacular Spider-Man or Wolverine & the X-Men. The TAS's (X-Men, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Hulk et. al.) often had character designs that were difficult to animate. Their writing and character acting tended toward the histrionic, and most of the lesser known shows varied wildly in quality.

They were, in a word, imperfect. And I loved those shows. I didn't miss an episode of X-Men: TAS for years, even if my little brother needed to tape it.

But these shows created the audience that became the same people who went to see the X-Men and Spider-Man movies, legitimizing superheroes in the public's eye. (I should say re-legitimize because Tim Burton's Batman did the same thing beforehand.) Marvel had spent about a decade developing this audience on Saturday mornings. Then, when they needed them, they showed up at movie theaters.

Wolverine & the X-Men and Spectacular Spider-Man are each the second show for their titular star from the movie-hero wave. They were proceeded by X-Men: Evolution and the MTV Spider-Man. All four of these shows (and Fantastic Four: World Greatest Heroes, and Iron Man: Armored Adventures) depended partly on the momentum their movies created.

And those movies depended partly on the 1990s shows.

So I have no problem if you call this "the golden age" of Marvel Animation. Marvel has given us some top-flight stuff the last few years. But it's an exaggeration to call the 1990's the dark ages. Think of it, instead, as a germination phase.

Good points and very well though out. Your conclusion makes more sense than mine does. The fact is that it's a great time for Superhero animation period.

Through the 90's and most of the 2000's DC had the TV animation Market cornered, most if not all their shows were top notch and high quality.

Marvel did not fare so well in the 90's. Greg X already said all that needed to be said about what was wrong withe the 90's Spider-Man and Wonderwall and macattack made excellent points as to the major problems with the super detailed character designs for X-Men and the other 90's Marvel shows. The designs were way too detailed and made for sloppy, blocky and stiff animation.

Simpler more streamlined designs make for more fluid and asethetic animation. These are animated series not Comic Books. If you want super detailed read the comics.

My problem with The recent F4 show is the lousy Action/Fight Scene Staging.

DC excelled at this.They have some of the best Action and Fight sequences in Television Animation. Im not just talking about the Bruce Timm shows. Im also talking about Teen Titans, The Batman and Legion of Superheroes and Batman Brave and The Bold.

Marvel is also great at this. Spectacular Spider-Man and Wolverine and The X-Men both have amazing action and fight scenes. Black Suit Spider-Man vs The Sinister Six in "Group Therapy" blew me away. Almost ever fight scene on this show is mind blowingly exciting. Wolverine and The X-Men also has decent action/ fight scenes.

The simpler more streamlined designs make for better action scenes


The way that these shows stage and storyboard their action and fight scenes is phenominal. The camera is always in the right place. The blocking is great. The coreographing is awsome and the animation is flawless.

The action and fight scenes in these shows are always exciting and dynamic, which is how it should be. The animation is fluid and cool. It just works.

You just never get bored when you watch these heroes in an action scene.

The new Fantastic 4 cartoon had none of this. This show has some of the worst action/fight scenes ever. These people don't know squat about staging and animating a good action scene, but this problem extends to more than just the action scenes.

The show uses strange camera angles and shots that are too experimental for animation and are often times confusing and off putting. Add this to the horrible editing. Their action scenes are boring and bland. Bad Staging and blocking with slopy animation. Often times they can be downright confusing.

The action scenes are boring and slow. The animation is not fluid. Bad Staging and blocking, Bad editing, and bad animation.

With Iron Man Armored Adventures, well I just have a problem with a teenage Iron Man/Tony Stark. To me thats like having a teenage Batman/Bruce Wayne and no Batman Beyond does not count cause that was not Bruce Wayne. To me it just does not work.

SHS well I dont hate it or love it, Its just there to me. I do dig the theme song though.

The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes looks AMAZING!!! I soooo cannot wait for it.

Ronald C

Why is there even a post like this?Its been done and never is settled because most people like the cheesy cartoony look of animation over the comic book style of animation.Its a matter of opinion and I like the more comic book style of animation.While others prefer cheesy cartoony style which is fine.I awaited the SSM squad to post comparisons and they didn't fail to do so.I still don't see how SSM is superior in animation and story compared to X-men animated series and most any other marvel series even the 80's.The character designs especially on peter parker are horrible but I guess thats what animation is like today.Those of you who say so what about how many shows spiderman 90's has compared to SSM that can be said about alot of series,the silver surfer and avengers united both wer'e stopped because of marvel's bankrupcy then.How many shows would there have been if marvel kept them going?Then again iron man had 2 seasons same with FF and hulk.Was it because those shows were'nt as good as spiderman and x-men?Probably so.It comes down to personal opinion and a thread like this is just wrong.

It's just that these are Superhero action shows capfan and detailed comic book like designs do not lend themselves to good,fluid animation. Not unless you have a huge budget.

These are animated shows not comic books. Just because the design of a show is not super detailed does not mean it's cheesy or cartoony. Do you know anything about design, animation and aesthetic?

 

[Rick Jones]

I don't think it's really fair to judge stuff like X-Men through post-DCAU eyes. It's easy to forget that there was a time when something like Batman TAS was far from the norm. Animation wise, X-Men was pretty typical of superhero/action shows but story-wise, it was pretty strong compared to most of the glorified 22 min. commercials that came before it. Timm and co. were really able to make something special as part of the post-Spielberg WB Animation studios and it's evident by the long reaching influence that it still has on action shows of today. I've always been a huge Marvel fan and while I was able to love and appreciate the artful advances of B:TAS at a really young age, X-Men was probably the one that I was more emotionally attached to (bad animation and all). It's always been a wish of mine that Marvel Animation will someday solidify into a strong studio, and there's been progress, but I think they still have a good way to go.

I don't really get why the Fleischer Superman series was brought up. That was high budgeted theatrical animation that tv animation of today still can't compare to.

 

[Wonderwall]

I don't really get why the Fleischer Superman series was brought up. That was high budgeted theatrical animation that tv animation of today still can't compare to.

Someone brought up that the animation of X men would be better if the technology was there. Fleisher may have had the budget but they definitely didn't have the technology that was available in the early 90s.