TNBA: Lighter than BTAS, or not? And if so, how so?

[Shadowmask]

The "Never Fear" thread had a bit of a sidetrack on the debate about whether TNBA was a step down in moody darkness from B:TAS, with some suggesting that that was popular conventional wisdom, but not really true. I was wondering what everyone thought.

My take: if there's one single way in which TNBA didn't match the darkness of B:TAS, it's that there really weren't any straight-up gangster stories. TNBA was more like S:TAS in that essentially every episode needed a costumed villain of some sort. Which is fine for the most part, but some of B:TAS' most somber and thought-provoking stories (e.g. "It's Never Too Late," "Appointment in Crime Alley," "I am the Night") had as their antagonists regular people, not "Evil Man." Of course, supervillains had darkness too ("Heart of Ice," "Two-Face," "Feat of Clay"), but there is a place for straight-up crime story stuff in Batman, and I wish TNBA had exploited it more.

Another thing was the Tim Drake Robin. I'll stand with a lot of the Batman hardcore in not really liking Robin in general, but the Dick Grayson Robin, while spouting corny jokes and being generally cheesy, was at least believable as a fighting character: an athletic guy in his early twenties. Tim, however, is what, 10? 12? Seeing a kid - a real kid - take on armed thugs and win really makes it harder for me to take the show seriously, and it's exactly the sort of "spunky kid with attitude" thing that appears so often in cartoons ("It's your kinda show, Puke-Face: a double feature!") I sort of liked "I've Got Batman in My Basement," but I'm not happy about making what I see as the equivalent of the kids in that episodes into regular characters.

Batgirl also had almost no personality in TNBA. In B:TAS she was appealing as an outsider trying to join the club; Batman and Robin appreciated her help, but thought of her as an amateur. She was, in some ways, the biggest viewer-identification character. In TNBA, most of her role is parroting what Batman says and being, basically, a drone sidekick. Maybe her obsequiousness is due to her hopes for the future relationship that develops between her and Batman (cf. Batman Beyond), but it's boring.

As for the episodes? It's easy to list the corny ones: "Love is a Croc," "Mean Seasons" (which I suppose had a sad bit of drama at the end, but was off-the-wall silly most of the way through), "Critters," "Cult of the Cat," "Girls' Night Out." But B:TAS had some real cornballs too: "The Underdwellers," "Eternal Youth," "The Cape and Cowl Conspiracy," "Moon of the Wolf," etc.. Citing the cornball episodes of TNBA doesn't make much of a point, but I do think the general changes noted in the previous paragraphs marked a real change, and one which I think was for the worse.

 

[Zabuza]

The "Never Fear" thread had a bit of a sidetrack on the debate about whether TNBA was a step down in moody darkness from B:TAS, with some suggesting that that was popular conventional wisdom, but not really true. I was wondering what everyone thought.

My take: if there's one single way in which TNBA didn't match the darkness of B:TAS, it's that there really weren't any straight-up gangster stories. TNBA was more like S:TAS in that essentially every episode needed a costumed villain of some sort. Which is fine for the most part, but some of B:TAS' most somber and thought-provoking stories (e.g. "It's Never Too Late," "Appointment in Crime Alley," "I am the Night") had as their antagonists regular people, not "Evil Man." Of course, supervillains had darkness too ("Heart of Ice," "Two-Face," "Feat of Clay"), but there is a place for straight-up crime story stuff in Batman, and I wish TNBA had exploited it more.

Another thing was the Tim Drake Robin. I'll stand with a lot of the Batman hardcore in not really liking Robin in general, but the Dick Grayson Robin, while spouting corny jokes and being generally cheesy, was at least believable as a fighting character: an athletic guy in his early twenties. Tim, however, is what, 10? 12? Seeing a kid - a real kid - take on armed thugs and win really makes it harder for me to take the show seriously, and it's exactly the sort of "spunky kid with attitude" thing that appears so often in cartoons ("It's your kinda show, Puke-Face: a double feature!") I sort of liked "I've Got Batman in My Basement," but I'm not happy about making what I see as the equivalent of the kids in that episodes into regular characters.

Batgirl also had almost no personality in TNBA. In B:TAS she was appealing as an outsider trying to join the club; Batman and Robin appreciated her help, but thought of her as an amateur. She was, in some ways, the biggest viewer-identification character. In TNBA, most of her role is parroting what Batman says and being, basically, a drone sidekick. Maybe her obsequiousness is due to her hopes for the future relationship that develops between her and Batman (cf. Batman Beyond), but it's boring.

As for the episodes? It's easy to list the corny ones: "Love is a Croc," "Mean Seasons" (which I suppose had a sad bit of drama at the end, but was off-the-wall silly most of the way through), "Critters," "Cult of the Cat," "Girls' Night Out." But B:TAS had some real cornballs too: "The Underdwellers," "Eternal Youth," "The Cape and Cowl Conspiracy," "Moon of the Wolf," etc.. Citing the cornball episodes of TNBA doesn't make much of a point, but I do think the general changes noted in the previous paragraphs marked a real change, and one which I think was for the worse.

ditto

but TNBA wasn't all that bad. it had some pretty good episodes: Mad Love, Over the Edge, Legends of the Dark Knight, Old Wounds... even Judgement Day wasn't that bad.

 

[Wolf Boy2]

My take: if there's one single way in which TNBA didn't match the darkness of B:TAS, it's that there really weren't any straight-up gangster stories. TNBA was more like S:TAS in that essentially every episode needed a costumed villain of some sort. Which is fine for the most part, but some of B:TAS' most somber and thought-provoking stories (e.g. "It's Never Too Late," "Appointment in Crime Alley," "I am the Night") had as their antagonists regular people, not "Evil Man." Of course, supervillains had darkness too ("Heart of Ice," "Two-Face," "Feat of Clay"), but there is a place for straight-up crime story stuff in Batman, and I wish TNBA had exploited it more.

I agree. Although Two-Face was a gangster, and every episode that had him in it maintained that gangster movie feel.

Another thing was the Tim Drake Robin. I'll stand with a lot of the Batman hardcore in not really liking Robin in general, but the Dick Grayson Robin, while spouting corny jokes and being generally cheesy, was at least believable as a fighting character: an athletic guy in his early twenties. Tim, however, is what, 10? 12? Seeing a kid - a real kid - take on armed thugs and win really makes it harder for me to take the show seriously

Yeah. Although in most cases Batman held Tim back, even made him stay in the cave (i.e., "Cold Comfort", where he never even wore the costume). The only notable exceptions were "Holiday Knights" (a comedy, so it doesn't count) and "Never Fear", in which Bruce had been gased with the fear removal toxin and thus didn't fear for Tim's life.

As for Batgirl, becoming a "drone sidekick" was a natural step in the evolution of her character. She couldn't be the outsider forever. Unfortunetly on B:TAS, her entire character was based on her being the outsider. TNBA did add vignettes (like in "Old Wounds", "You Scratch My Back" and the entire episode "Over the Edge") to explore Barbara's character.

"Mean Seasons" was silly, but it also contained some deep comentary on sexuality and American culture. Pretty heavy stuff for a kid's show, even with the exploding confetti easter eggs.

 

[Revelator]

My take: if there's one single way in which TNBA didn't match the darkness of B:TAS, it's that there really weren't any straight-up gangster stories. ...some of B:TAS' most somber and thought-provoking stories (e.g. "It's Never Too Late," "Appointment in Crime Alley," "I am the Night") had as their antagonists regular people, not "Evil Man."

They're not regular people--they're cliched mob bosses and hitmen, taken from old crime movies. Lots of people are impressed by this rampant pastiching, but I don't think it's worth it, especially because I don't find the episodes listed particularly thought-provoking. "I Am the Night" is pretentious garbage, "Crime Alley" is weak, and "It's Never Too Late" doesn't do anything that hasn't already been beaten to death in 30s crime dramas. I'm perfectly fine with never again hearing from people like Roland Daggett, the Jazzman, or Stromwell.

Another thing was the Tim Drake Robin... Tim, however, is what, 10? 12? Seeing a kid - a real kid - take on armed thugs and win really makes it harder for me to take the show seriously

In a show that features a man dressed in batsuit taken on giant walking clay monsters and evil clowns? Uh huh.
Tim's youth worked in his favor. "Growing Pains" wouldn't have worked half as well if Tim wasn't a kid, because the episode's effectiveness depends on someone encountering love for the first time and watching it die. Similarly, "Never Fear" works better with Tim facing off against Batman, because the drama is more effective with a scared kid versus a very nasty father-figure adult. And if we consider the flashback sequence in ROTJ to be TNBA's second-to-last appearance, none of that would have worked without Tim. Having a child Robin raised the stakes, and helped accentuate Batman's image as a cold, withholding, neurotic father figure.

Batgirl also had almost no personality in TNBA. In B:TAS she was appealing as an outsider trying to join the club; Batman and Robin appreciated her help, but thought of her as an amateur. She was, in some ways, the biggest viewer-identification character.

That's not personality you're speaking of--just character function. By becoming Batman's (perhaps) closest associate, Batman's personality could also be split--she often represents the more compassionate, friendlier side of Batman, leaving TNBA Batman to be better off-set against his sidekicks.

As for the episodes? It's easy to list the corny ones: "Love is a Croc," "Mean Seasons" (which I suppose had a sad bit of drama at the end, but was off-the-wall silly most of the way through), "Critters," "Cult of the Cat," "Girls' Night Out."

And as you've admitted, BTAS had a good share of corny stinkers. And I really don't see much that's "off the wall silly" about "Mean Seasons" in comparison to other supervillain episodes. There's the robot dinosaur, but's no sillier than Hardac and robot Batman in BTAS. At bottom, the episode is the sort of psychologically motivated, villain-centered tale that people are so happy to applaud in BTAS but shut their eyes against in TNBA. Beyond that, it's also an excellent feminist parable about our culture's use of women. In any case, we're wandering farther away from the real topic of this thread.
Any consideration of TNBA as lighter than BTAS has to take into account "Out of the Past," "Growing Pains," "Never Fear" and other entries, like "mad Love" are more than a match for the darkest, most nightmarish episodes of BTAS. TNBA is superficially more kid-friendly, but it got away with a lot more than BTAS did.

 

[jv2k]

Personally I always thought it to be the opposite. To me BTAS is the lighter batman for many reasons. The most noticable reason is violence, kidswb edited the blood out, but we still had moments like barbra falling to her death and landing on the car(sure it was a dream, but we still saw her die). It had Mad Love, which went somewhere that TAS could never go, the Joker as an abusive "husband"(though it was out of place with the other joker episodes). It also had an over all darker batman, one who didn't talk much or was as light hearted as the TAS version.

Violence was more prominent in this series than the previous one. No TAS episode has Joker comming at Batman with a knife. No TAS episode has anyone plumeting to their death and dying(joker doesn't count!), I mean they showed babs land on the car. We had Tim Drakes father being found in a river as a John Doe. We had clayface create and kill a young girl whom Tim Drake becomes attatched to. There is also blood, but the only time KidsWB showed blood was one frame they missed in Cult of the Cat.

Next we have some dark episodes like Mad Love, which in itself is among the darkest episodes in the series, and one of the best Joker appearance. It showed just how manipulative the joker could be, swaying the heart of a young psycologist and manipulating her. He would not only manipulate her, he would BEAT her. We also have things like that model in mean seasons, who had really deeply routed psycological problems based.

Then there was Batman, personally I prefer the TAS characterization but he was a darker person in TNBA. He was stronger, tougher, cruler, and more of a brooding jerk than the more kid friendly bruce.

All and all the issue isn't darkness, its just more over the top. More villain focused than the previous series which really is natural progression. After all if batman was doing his job right, we can't have Gotham full of Mob Bosses and crime forever. Eventually they fall and the ones who are able to take on the caped crusader, the super villains are the only ones left(so are the petty theives).

 

[Aldrius]

He was stronger, tougher, cruler, and more of a brooding jerk than the more kid friendly bruce.

...How is not being a jerk-wad who does nothing but brood make him more kid friendly? =\

Eh. I like B:TAS better. I like the mob-bosses and the lack of side-kicks... Batman is a more complex character and he actually has moments of dry humour that are lacking in TNBA. Alfred is actually a character in B:TAS, who has a father-son relationship with Batman.

'cause seriously. Using characitures from old movies is pretty progressive for a friggin' 'cartoon'.

 

[James]

Rather than spill out a long tiresome monologue on how I disagree, I suggest than following this paragraph you drag up the page to Revelator's post and pretend what he says is what I said. His points are spot on IMO. BTAS may initially seem darker visually and stylistically, but I'd say TNBA is a far darker series. Now. Drag that page up and read Revelator's post again.

 

[Bat_Girl]

It is definitley lighter but I still love it just as much as BTAS.

 

[JSmith]

There's really no question about it, TNBA is lighter than BTAS. The creators have said so on many occasions. It's even on the dvd's, with Dan Riba saying that they felt like they'd done the dark stuff enough and TNBA was an opportunity to do more light-hearted, fun stories. Sure, you have a handful of great, dark stories like Over The Edge, Mad Love and Old Wounds. But most of it is kiddie fare. Whenever you get the whole bat-family together the campiness just poors out. It happened with the animated series and the live action movies as well. More teenage sidekicks equals more goofiness. I really hope they never bring Robin into the Batman Begins series of films. He'll only ruin things. Did everyone hear that Heath Ledger is playing Joker in the next one? Don't know how I feel about that.

 

[James]

...How is not being a jerk-wad who does nothing but brood make him more kid friendly? =\

He broods in TNBA too. The point that was being made is that Bruce in BTAS falls far more into the generic cartoon hero class than TNBA. Bruce's intensity and far colder nature does make him a far less archetypal hero. Heroes can brood, but it's rare they are obsessive, miss graduations, snap at their colleagues and are generally less charismatic to both audience and fellow characters.

TNBA Bruce is far darker than BTAS Bruce and yes, as cartoons go, that does make him less kid friendly.

What I'm seeing is a difference stemming between darkness in visuals and direction compared to characters and narrative. I can't see an argument for BTAS having darker stories. So they use gangsters in BTAS - I don't think that makes any difference. The Gangsters have goons like Skeletor has minions. The roles are interchangable. TNBA has far darker themes and characters situations for both heroes and villains alike. It's also progressive in it's dark tones; it's built on the premises of BTAS and takes those ideals further. Dick is a far more messed up character in TNBA. Bruce's quest is less moral and more habitual. It's becoming an obsession and the show makes no stance against this; he doesn't change throughout the show or even recouncile the more intensitive drive in his crusade. Even though it has a younger Robin, his background is fairly dark and as we know from ROTJ, his role is retrospectively darker still.

To me, Over The Edge, Mad Love, Legends of the Dark Knight, Growing Pains, Old Wounds.. stand out as being more adult stories than any I can recall in BTAS.

I agree that visually, they don't have such classy and retro-noir feel to them. Yes, the inclusion of a child Robin in TNBA superfically makes the stories seem lighter, as do the more vibrant colours. But if you look at the characters and stories, I think you'll find TNBA is a far bleaker and dark step into Gotham.

 

[Aldrius]

He broods in TNBA too. The point that was being made is that Bruce in BTAS falls far more into the generic cartoon hero class than TNBA. Bruce's intensity and far colder nature does make him a far less archetypal hero. Heroes can brood, but it's rare they are obsessive, miss graduations, snap at their colleagues and are generally less charismatic to both audience and fellow characters.

TNBA Bruce is far darker than BTAS Bruce and yes, as cartoons go, that does make him less kid friendly.

Which makes him a distant jerk, who I personally find difficult to relate to. He comes across as much more of a robot. And I prefer his interchanges with Alfred and Gordon to his cold judgemental hand when dealing with Tim, Dick or Barbara.

The Gangsters make the story more realistic because well... there are gangsters in real life. There's corruption in the bussiness world. There's greedy, greedy men who don't have some dark scarring in their past which makes them crazies who have to be locked up in a revolving door asylum...

I'll concede that TNBA is GRITTIER but I don't find it DARKER. I find that episodes like Perchance to Dream, Beware the Grey Ghost, among others provide insight into characters, or are just plain fun mysterious plots...

 

[jv2k]

...How is not being a jerk-wad who does nothing but brood make him more kid friendly? =\

Well, james already went over why but I'd like to also say it was late, and I kind of zoned out while I was writing that so after deleting a few bad sentances I decided to wrap up my post. Sorry for not clarifying as much.

Which makes him a distant jerk, who I personally find difficult to relate to. He comes across as much more of a robot. And I prefer his interchanges with Alfred and Gordon to his cold judgemental hand when dealing with Tim, Dick or Barbara.

But it doesn't make him a "Lighter" character than the TAS Bruce. TNBA would never say "time for a little Batmagic" or beat an enemy with chicken soup.

The Gangsters make the story more realistic because well... there are gangsters in real life. There's corruption in the bussiness world. There's greedy, greedy men who don't have some dark scarring in their past which makes them crazies who have to be locked up in a revolving door asylum...

But is it really any more darker than a gangster two face killing robin's father? Just because it has gangsters doesn't make it dark. Would you call the Alien movies light hearted because they don't use realistic antagonists? Of course not. It doesn't have to be realistic to be dark, it just has to have a more adult, gritty tone to the stories.

I'll concede that TNBA is GRITTIER but I don't find it DARKER. I find that episodes like Perchance to Dream, Beware the Grey Ghost, among others provide insight into characters, or are just plain fun mysterious plots...

Hey Arnold had plenty of fun episodes that gave insight into the characters, does that mean that it's darker than TNBA too? Of course not.
It may not be visually darker, and you may not like it(hey a lot of batman fans despise the darker version that came into the comics after nightfall and like the 70s ones better, that doesn't make it any darker though). The thing is for whatever reason you seem to pick Batman TAS as the darker series because you like it better. It really doesn't matter if you do(I do too) but its just not as dark.

 

[Revelator]

There's really no question about it, TNBA is lighter than BTAS.

If there was no question about it, the issue wouldn't come up for debate over and over again.

The creators have said so on many occasions. It's even on the dvd's, with Dan Riba saying that they felt like they'd done the dark stuff enough and TNBA was an opportunity to do more light-hearted, fun stories.

Trust the tale, not the teller, especially since as a teller Riba directed several but not all the episodes.

Sure, you have a handful of great, dark stories like Over The Edge, Mad Love and Old Wounds. But most of it is kiddie fare.

The same old sophistry again. If you're going to judge a series, you have to judge it as a whole. You can't say, "well aside from all those incredibly dark episodes, it was a lighter show." TNBA has a heart of darkness consisting of Over the Edge, Old Wounds, Never Fear, Growing Pains, and Mad Love. That's arguably greater and blacker than anything at the core of BTAS, and it has to be taken into account when judging the two. Nor was most of TNBA kiddie fare (that's a generalization--which episodes?), and if some of it was, it wasn't any worse or kiddier than dreck like Be a Clown, the Underdwellers, or I've Got Batman in My Basement.

Whenever you get the whole bat-family together the campiness just poors out.

And how many episodes featured the whole Batman family together? They briefly appear all together in Sins of the Father and Chemistry, and all three are in Over the Edge and Old Wounds. None of these are particularly campy (Chemistry is outlandish, but there's a difference), especially the last two. No, I'm afraid Susan Sontag wouldn't find much to keep her busy in TNBA.

 

[Revelator]

Which makes him a distant jerk, who I personally find difficult to relate to. He comes across as much more of a robot.

Robots don't brood or experience emotional repression. Batman is a fra more interesting character in TNBA precisely because his psychological problems are greater.

The Gangsters make the story more realistic because well... there are gangsters in real life. There's corruption in the bussiness world.

And do we ever see Stromwell or Thorne engaging in business? No, because lots of BTAS's gangsters have little to do with real gangsters. They're imported from old noir/gangster movies--that arguably makes them less realistic.

I'll concede that TNBA is GRITTIER but I don't find it DARKER. I find that episodes like Perchance to Dream, Beware the Grey Ghost, among others provide insight into characters, or are just plain fun mysterious plots...

Providing insight into characters or fun mysterious plots doesn't make a show dark. Being grittier can. We don't say something is darker than something else because it has a fun mysterious plot or provides character insight. But folks often do describe dark shows as gritty.

 

[JSmith]

If you don't believe that TNBA was meant by the creators to be lighter than BTAS you really should hit Google and do your homework. Again, the creators have said time and again that they had done the dark stuff enough and wanted to do material that was lighter and more fun. TNBA was picked by one of the writers as his favorite season cuz he said it was most like the Adam West Batman show of the 60's. If that's not light, what is? The creators are on record saying that since they were gonna make Batman darker, everything else would be lighter. Robin calling TwoFace Pukeface. Batgirl quoting Pinky and the Brain. Supervillains using gang members who dress up in costume and talk like the 3 stooges. And for the most part the subject material lacked emotional pull and was more about action. Just Batman beating on the super-baddie of the week. A few standout episodes, which you could count on one hand, do not a darker show make. If you look at TNBA with open and honest eyes there is no doubt that it is far lighter than BTAS. It was meant to be. Ask the creators. That's not saying the show isn't good, just that it doesn't have the adult appeal that BTAS does. Read the interviews. TNBA is lighter, that's all there is to it.

 

[JEWCY]

While talking about what series is lighter, on Boomerang last night, they aired the episode "The Ultimiate Thrill." While a very good episode and enjoyable one, it was very sexual in the least for a Batman/cartoon in general. You have Roxy Rocket who when on the rocket with Batman was wearing one of those strap shirts and pretty much orgasming when the rocket was about to hit the cliff. Then when Batman and her are "seemingly" going to die by plunging into the ground, she almost talks dirty to him in the sensual whispering tone women do at times. The little kisses she blows to Batman is a lesser extent, but still there is an adult theme that is occuring during these 20 minutes in an episode. There was also that talk of the Penguin hopefully hooking up with her before the s*** hit the fan. I think that is one of the better examples that you could use.

In my opinion I think TNBA is a lot darker in that Batman does not try and put forth the extra effort into making the evil villian a good person (as he did in B:TAS), rather just put them in that ever revolving door we call Arkham Asylum.

 

[Revelator]

If you don't believe that TNBA was meant by the creators to be lighter than BTAS you really should hit Google and do your homework.

I don't care if it was meant to be lighter. I'm interested in what the actual shows are like, not what people say they're meant to be like. It matters little to me if James Tucker says TNBA was more like the Batman show of the 60s, because it seems to me that the show is also quite unlike the campiness of the 60s show. I trust the tale, not the teller.

Again, the creators have said time and again that they had done the dark stuff enough and wanted to do material that was lighter and more fun.

And yet the shows that resulted featured some of the darkest stories in the DCAU, many darker than anything in BTAS. What does that say?

Robin calling TwoFace Pukeface. Batgirl quoting Pinky and the Brain. Supervillains using gang members who dress up in costume and talk like the 3 stooges.

This is your evidence? As if villains were never referred to by nicknames in BTAS? And so what if Batgirl makes a reference to another WB show? And are three henchmen dressed up as the three stooges any worse than three villains with fox, shark and vulture heads?

And for the most part the subject material lacked emotional pull and was more about action. Just Batman beating on the super-baddie of the week. A few standout episodes, which you could count on one hand, do not a darker show make.

Yes, because they obviously exist in a vacuum with no relation to anything else. Once again, if you can't judge the whole as a whole, your judgement is off. What is BTAS without its own standout episodes? They're part of how we judge the whole. And how were most episodes of BTAS not about Batman defeating the superbaddie of the week, even if the show made use of cliched gangsters from time to time? BTAs was an action show too. We're already shown time and again that a substantial amount of TNBA featured episodes with great emotional pull. Generalizations like "the subject matter lacked emotional pull and was more about action" are exactly that--generalizations, and they're not convincing. Unless people are prepared to go through the episodes and list which ones are more about action (in response I can trawl through BTAS too), it's a weak argument.

If you look at TNBA with open and honest eyes there is no doubt that it is far lighter than BTAS. It was meant to be. Ask the creators.

How is it that you're looking at TNBA with open and honest eyes when all you're doing is basing your argument on the old intentional fallacy? It seems to me that you're clutching to the words of the creators and few bits of humor as you're evidence, rather than the actual shows in context.

 

[Aldrius]

Robots don't brood or experience emotional repression. Batman is a fra more interesting character in TNBA precisely because his psychological problems are greater.

What problems? Every time he runs into Nightwing, Nightwing yells at him, then three minutes later they're getting along better than when Dick was Robin. We don't see Batman deal with it. He just stares at him blankly. Tim is disagreeable and a bit snot-nosed. (Like alot of 12 year olds.) And Batman just grumbles and brushes him off (except for Never Fear)... and Barbara... well, Barbara is just ever-agreeable. No problems there.

TNBA was about the villains and the side-kicks. Not Batman... atleast that's how I find it.

As for corrupt business... I was talking about Roland Daggett. In alot of episodes he's a complete slime-ball who's trying to look like a nice guy. ("Not only will this little bottle make me a fortune... it's going to make me a hero as well.") But you've already mentioned not liking Daggett, so eh.

... Okay, I'm bowing out. Overthinking these episodes just takes out alot of the enjoyment I get out of watching them... and it's annoying.

This argument is very subjective as it is... What makes an episode 'dark'? Violence and sex? Deep stories portraying character interaction? Realistic situations with characters you could go to New York and look for? (Yeah, yeah, Thorne and Stromwell are cliches from old movies...) etc.

Adding all that up, I just think Batman has that little bit more that makes it a darker series.

So yeah, bowing out. I've made my point, if you disagree with it, then you disagree with it.

 

[Wolf Boy2]

I have to point out that the so-called "cliched" gangsters are only cliche to adults familiar with the film noir genre. As a child, B:TAS was my first introduction to film noir, and this I tend to associate ganster films with Batman, not vice-versa.

Also, gangsters and mafia have always been an important part of the Batman mythos, even nowdays. Just look at "The Long Halloween." It's like a scene out of a Puzzo novel.

Look at this, the cover of the first Batman comic ever:

See the gangsters? The gangster stories in B:TAS were on one level film noir tributes, but they were also tributes to the early Batman stories. B:TAS combined the modern and the classic. TNBA sacrificed the classic for the modern. That is one thing I do hold against my beloved TNBA.

 

[Revelator]

Also, gangsters and mafia have always been an important part of the Batman mythos, even nowdays.

And they were quickly elbowed aside by the costumed supervillains, because the creators rightly suspected that the gangsters weren't as interesting. They're of secondary importance.

Just look at "The Long Halloween." It's like a scene out of a Puzzo novel.

To quote the review of It's Never Too Late, from the "I Watched BTAS for 16 Hours in a Row" article: "If I want to watch a mobster story about guilt and regret I'll go watch the Godfather trilogy again."

Look at this, the cover of the first Batman comic ever:
See the gangsters?

Look inside at the actual story. See any gangsters? The bad guy is involved with a chemical company. Yes, it's as exciting as it sounds. That's not to deny that gangster stories aren't a part of the comics. They're just not one of the best parts, and they don't even feature in the first Batman comic.

The gangster stories in B:TAS were on one level film noir tributes, but they were also tributes to the early Batman stories. B:TAS combined the modern and the classic. TNBA sacrificed the classic for the modern.

There's little that's classic about derivative noir tributes, and a lot of those early Batman stories aren't particularly great in terms of story--I say that as an owner of the first Batman archives set. Nor, in my opinion, did those gangsters make for any first-rate episodes of BTAS. The best BTAS epsiodes are still mostly the ones with the supervillains. Some "classic" aspects can stand to be sacrificed.