Cowboy Bebop

[Tohya]

But I don't really let that distract me from a series like this. And the Pros do outweigh the cons I'll admit.

Here is the thing about Cowboy bebop, is that looking back at it now....yea it was a very flawed series, and if you compare it to other stuff that is out nowadays its an average series at best. But at the time it came out, 1998 in japan and 02 in the states....it was best thing since slice bread. There was no show like it, there was no show that was as awesome or cool or as badass as cowboy bebop was, and thats just the truth.
And without the success of cowboy bebop, who knows were anime in the states would be right now. So when looking back at Cowboy bebop you always have to remember this....not only was it an awesome show for its time and era, but that it was an important show that was instrumental in the raise and success of anime in the states

 

[Philmister978]

Here is the thing about Cowboy bebop, is that looking back at it now....yea it was a very flawed series, and if you compare it to other stuff that is out nowadays its an average series at best. But at the time it came out, 1998 in japan and 02 in the states....it was best thing since slice bread. There was no show like it, there was no show that was as awesome or cool or as badass as cowboy bebop was, and thats just the truth.
And without the success of cowboy bebop, who knows were anime in the states would be right now. So when looking back at Cowboy bebop you always have to remember this....not only was it an awesome show for its time and era, but that it was an important show that was instrumental in the raise and success of anime in the states

Indeed.

 

[Manga4life]

I disagree, but to each their own. If anything, I think the true genius of Cowboy Bebop has really shined through with age and it proves that an anime is only as good as it's characters and plot, the only thing that's really took a dive would be the animation quality. But then again, that's expected with a serie that's now 13 years old.

 

[Desensitized]

Cowboy Bebop is sill one of the best anime ever made and until Japan releases an anime with as much style, character, creativity, heart, and soul as this one then it shall remain one of the best. It's not "of its time" at all, it's still one of the best anime ever made.

That's just how it is.

 

[savedbythebell]

Here is the thing about Cowboy bebop, is that looking back at it now....yea it was a very flawed series, and if you compare it to other stuff that is out nowadays its an average series at best.

Compared to what?

I think its still one of the best anime series of all time if not the best.

 

[ensatsu-ken]

Here is the thing about Cowboy bebop, is that looking back at it now....yea it was a very flawed series, and if you compare it to other stuff that is out nowadays its an average series at best.

I must admit I am curious to know just which series you are referring to. Everything is all opinion, anyways, but I have seen my share of popular anime series since Cowboy Bebop and I don't think I've ever seen a single one that has managed to top it, let alone even come close to it in quality, personally.

If you're looking at Cowboy Bebop just from a story standpoint, then just going by the outset there is nothing too terribly impressive about it. However, actually watching the show is a real experience, with some expertly crafted stories that are full of both style AND substance (whereas a lot of later series that tried to emulate Cowboy Bebop's success seemed to have been really lacking in the latter of those 2 qualities), and the series itself is carried by some truly great and memorable characters. If you ask me, Bebop is still one of the best out there, and far above anything that I would deem as average, and that's not coming out of bias or nostalgia since I was never even into the show when it initially aired in the states (to be honest), and only got into it quite a few years later when my older brother rented the DVDs for it.

I also disagree with the person who said the animation has taken a big dive. I've seen the series many times and the animation still holds up in terms of its brilliant fluidity and use of stylistic design choices. I have seen series with better animation, but Cowboy Bebop is by no means lacking in the animation department even by today's standards. In fact, just checking out a lot of the more recent shows that I have seen, aside from looking all "shiny and glossy," the actual animation for most of them that I have seen seems to be genericly "stiff" for the most part like most anime that I have seen in general, and the artwork usually tends to be more generic, as in it doesn't seem to be all that clearly distinguishable from a number of other anime series with very similar art styles.

 

[Magus]

I don't know, if you ask me back when I first saw Cowboy Bebop (I think 2000) I'd probably say it was the 2nd greatest of all time (I say 2nd because my favorite "was" Ghost in the Shell: SAC) but looking at it now, I'll definately say it has aged a bit. I get that people have their nostalgic moments but me, no (Nostalga means absolutely nothing to me). It don't give me that effect I once had for it. I don't find it exciting anymore (Honestly, this is going on with a few of these old hits these days). Admittedly this is probably due to all the times I've watched it and the many times it's been repeated on [AS], I just got to the point to where I'm worn out.

Animation wise, it definately still holds up though. It may not have the flashy colors like most anime do these days, but art direction and fluidity of character movement, yeah, it put some of these other shows to shame.

but I have seen my share of popular anime series since Cowboy Bebop and I don't think I've ever seen a single one that has managed to top it, let alone even come close to it in quality, personally.

Personally, Samurai Champloo for me, although there is a slight biasness there simply because of my love for samurai's, but "shrugs".

 

[ensatsu-ken]

I don't know, if you ask me back when I first saw Cowboy Bebop (I think 2000) I'd probably say it was the 2nd greatest of all time (I say 2nd because my favorite "was" Ghost in the Shell: SAC) but looking at it now, I'll definately say it has aged a bit. I get that people have their nostalgic moments but me, no (Nostalga means absolutely nothing to me). It don't give me that effect I once had for it. I don't find it exciting anymore (Honestly, this is going on with a few of these old hits these days). Admittedly this is probably due to all the times I've watched it and the many times it's been repeated on [AS], I just got to the point to where I'm worn out.

That would be assuming that most people value Cowboy Bebop out of nostalgia, which isn't the case because just about most people I know can still watch it today and find it to hold up really well, and like I said myself, I didn't even like it when I was a kid but when I got a few years older I found it to be great, and it still holds up better than most recent action anime in the same vein do, IMO. To me it just comes off as more genuinely well put-together, personally.

Personally, Samurai Champloo for me, although there is a slight biasness there simply because of my love for samurai's, but "shrugs".

Eh, To each his own, but personally I always found Samurai Champloo to be what I would use as an example of style and flash over substance. To be more specific, it had great touches of style with its music and tone and had great animation to support it, but to put it simply I didn't find myself caring about any of the characters and didn't find any of the writing to be all that impressive. I didn't really find Mugen to be a likable character (he had some of the more "jerk-ish" qualities that reminded me of Spike, but it didn't feel like there was much more to him than that except for a few key moments in the show) and I felt that they tried a bit too hard to make Jin the "silent but cool" character but that tone just came off as cliche and a bit underwhelming to me, honestly.

That isn't to say that I think SC is bad or anything, but personally I never really understood the appeal behind it. At the very least I definitely wouldn't say that it has aged any "better" than Cowboy Bebop, given that I think CB has aged just fine, but with SC its really up to how much the series means to the individual person who watches it, which to me honestly wasn't all that much.

But, that's all of course just my opinion.

 

[Desensitized]

That would be assuming that most people value Cowboy Bebop out of nostalgia, which isn't the case because just about most people I know can still watch it today and find it to hold up really well, and like I said myself, I didn't even like it when I was a kid but when I got a few years older I found it to be great, and it still holds up better than most recent action anime in the same vein do, IMO. To me it just comes off as more genuinely well put-together, personally.

I dunno, when I show people this anime to this day, they still seem to enjoy it despite having no nostalgic attachment to it.

I think some people use the nostalgia argument a bit more than they should, as it really devalues a lot of the work that went into shows like this. Good story and characters don't age poorly. Even the animation still looks good, and the direction is still phenomenal. I don't see what has 'aged poorly' here as not one person has named a current anime that outdoes Cowboy Bebop in all the areas people praise it for. I just find that odd.

Eh, To each his own, but personally I always found Samurai Champloo to be what I would use as an example of style and flash over substance. To be more specific, it had great touches of style with its music and tone and had great animation to support it, but to put it simply I didn't find myself caring about any of the characters and didn't find any of the writing to be all that impressive. I didn't really find Mugen to be a likable character (he had some of the more "jerk-ish" qualities that reminded me of Spike, but it didn't feel like there was much more to him than that except for a few key moments in the show) and I felt that they tried a bit too hard to make Jin the "silent but cool" character but that tone just came off as cliche and a bit underwhelming to me, honestly.

That isn't to say that I think SC is bad or anything, but personally I never really understood the appeal behind it. At the very least I definitely wouldn't say that it has aged any "better" than Cowboy Bebop, given that I think CB has aged just fine, but with SC its really up to how much the series means to the individual person who watches it, which to me honestly wasn't all that much.

But, that's all of course just my opinion.

Flash over substance is exactly how me and my friends felt. We all loved the first episode but got bored as the series went along because it just didn't have any meat to it beyond good direction and a good soundtrack. The characters are all one note, the story is pretty dull, and I was never once engaged with what was happening.

Honestly, I've never really cared for SC much at all, especially if we're comparing it to Cowboy Bebop. IMO, obviously.

 

[ensatsu-ken]

I dunno, when I show people this anime to this day, they still seem to enjoy it despite having no nostalgic attachment to it.

I think some people use the nostalgia argument a bit more than they should, as it really devalues a lot of the work that went into shows like this. Good story and characters don't age poorly. Even the animation still looks good, and the direction is still phenomenal. I don't see what has 'aged poorly' here as not one person has named a current anime that outdoes Cowboy Bebop in all the areas people praise it for. I just find that odd.

Well, I was just arguing against the "its-a-product-of-nostalgia" argument and not for it, just in case you thought I was saying otherwise.

But yeah, obviously I agree with all of the points that you just mentioned.

Flash over substance is exactly how me and my friends felt. We all loved the first episode but got bored as the series went along because it just didn't have any meat to it beyond good direction and a good soundtrack. The characters are all one note, the story is pretty dull, and I was never once engaged with what was happening.

Honestly, I've never really cared for SC much at all, especially if we're comparing it to Cowboy Bebop. IMO, obviously.

I pretty much feel the same way. I can see how people would enjoy SC on entertainment value, even though its not really my thing, but I really don't think that it compares to Cowboy Bebop in terms of writing and characterization, honestly.

 

[Magus]

Eh, To each his own, but personally I always found Samurai Champloo to be what I would use as an example of style and flash over substance. To be more specific, it had great touches of style with its music and tone and had great animation to support it, but to put it simply I didn't find myself caring about any of the characters and didn't find any of the writing to be all that impressive. I didn't really find Mugen to be a likable character (he had some of the more "jerk-ish" qualities that reminded me of Spike, but it didn't feel like there was much more to him than that except for a few key moments in the show) and I felt that they tried a bit too hard to make Jin the "silent but cool" character but that tone just came off as cliche and a bit underwhelming to me, honestly.

Hmm. I can't say I'm the type of person that really "cares" for characters like that. If anything, if I like a character it's mainly because of a certain trait that I prefer with all my characters (In that "Top 25 characters nomination" thread you'll notice that most of, if not all of my picks have 1 or 2 things in common and that's that they're either the cool silent type or have that jerk-ish bad###ness going for them). I guess you can say I'm very 1-dimensional with characters (or anime in general lol). What made Mugen an enjoyable character for me is almost all of his moments were comical. Now I'm not saying he is or isn't more enjoyable than Spike. I like Spike, in fact I believe he is in my top favs while Mugen and Jin are not. As I've stated before, though, I am pretty bias when it comes to anime dealing with samurai's.

Don't get me wrong though, CB is good, but when I watch it now, let's just say it lost that appeal. And then what it really comes down to is that I'm an action freak (swords, fighting). Besides, I like flash, substance is bonus if it's there but I'm gonna go for flash all the time .

Future references, I know it's your opinion and I respect it. Don't have to keep repeating it

 

[savedbythebell]

I love Samurai Champloo and in my opinion its one of the only shows that comes close to being as good as Cowboy Bebop. But still I love Cowboy Bebop so much more.

And I'm sick of the whole "you only like this because its nostalgic argument" when it comes to older shows. My friend who's a huge anime fan barely watched Cowboy Bebop for the first time this year and its now one of his favorite series.

Seriously what makes this show so "average" compared to newer series?

 

[ensatsu-ken]

Hmm. I can't say I'm the type of person that really "cares" for characters like that. If anything, if I like a character it's mainly because of a certain trait that I prefer with all my characters (In that "Top 25 characters nomination" thread you'll notice that most of, if not all of my picks have 1 or 2 things in common and that's that they're either the cool silent type or have that jerk-ish bad###ness going for them). I guess you can say I'm very 1-dimensional with characters (or anime in general lol). What made Mugen an enjoyable character for me is almost all of his moments were comical. Now I'm not saying he is or isn't more enjoyable than Spike. I like Spike, in fact I believe he is in my top favs while Mugen and Jin are not. As I've stated before, though, I am pretty bias when it comes to anime dealing with samurai's.

Don't get me wrong though, CB is good, but when I watch it now, let's just say it lost that appeal. And then what it really comes down to is that I'm an action freak (swords, fighting). Besides, I like flash, substance is bonus if it's there but I'm gonna go for flash all the time .

Future references, I know it's your opinion and I respect it. Don't have to keep repeating it

Fair enough. I can understand quite well the feeling of getting burned out on an anime due to overexposure (that happened to me with One Piece quite a few times, in all honesty, which is why it took me forever to catch up to the manga to the point that I only caught up by the time the Impel Down arc was close to done). Its fine if SC is more of your thing, my main point was just that I thought CB was genuinely good and had nothing to do with nostalgia. That's pretty much it.

As for the opinion thing, don't mind me when I say that. Its more a force of habit rather than me thinking that you would take it the wrong way (I just got used to doing that back on an old site I used to go to in which one too many people got way too touchy when I disagreed with the popular opinion over there ).

 

[DBZNarutoWarrior]

I love Samurai Champloo and in my opinion its one of the only shows that comes close to being as good as Cowboy Bebop. But still I love Cowboy Bebop so much more.

And I'm sick of the whole "you only like this because its nostalgic argument" when it comes to older shows. My friend who's a huge anime fan barely watched Cowboy Bebop for the first time this year and its now one of his favorite series.

Seriously what makes this show so "average" compared to newer series?

I agree with you're entire post. First off, I saw Bebop in it's entirety for the first time when I purchased it on a whim a couple of years ago. Prior to that, I saw a portion of an episode on Easter morning when I was probably 14 or so, so I really didn't know too much about it. I can safely say that it became one of my most favorite series of all time. The replay value is all there as well. You get the same emotions and reactions each time that you watch it. It truly is timeless.

I can also relate to what you said about Samurai Champloo. I first saw that series last summer, and it was great, but still not up to par compared to Bebop. It's another series that I might buy, but I'm not sure if the replay value is all there and therefore if it's worth buying. Still a great series though.

 

[Sketch]

Here is the thing about Cowboy bebop, is that looking back at it now....yea it was a very flawed series, and if you compare it to other stuff that is out nowadays its an average series at best. But at the time it came out, 1998 in japan and 02 in the states....it was best thing since slice bread. There was no show like it, there was no show that was as awesome or cool or as badass as cowboy bebop was, and thats just the truth.
And without the success of cowboy bebop, who knows were anime in the states would be right now. So when looking back at Cowboy bebop you always have to remember this....not only was it an awesome show for its time and era, but that it was an important show that was instrumental in the raise and success of anime in the states

Average?

There hasn't been anything even LIKE Bebop in several years much less as on the same level of quality. Cowboy Bebop is timeless. It truly is. Because it's animation still looks great, it's characters aged very well and it's just as compelling today as it was when it first was produced. New people discover Bebop all the time so it's not just nostalgia at the helm. Personally I was never a big fan of Bebop but I've always maintained a healthy respect for it.

It's one of the only Japanese cartoons I'd consider worthy of a top 10 cartoons of all time list. I like some shows better but I'd never argue they are actually better made, written, acted, storyboarded, scored, etc. Quality sides with Bebop even today it's still a unique and engaging experience.

But I'll bite, what shows coming out in Japan today are apparently managing to average out Cowboy Bebop? I'm really curious what you're answer is.

 

[Tohya]

Average?

Hmmmm friend, I somehow have a hard time believing someone such as yourself lacks reading comprehension, but alas thats exactly what you just proved right now. I was merely speaking on behalf of those newbies who would ask what the big deal was with Cowboy Bebop. Notice the words "best thing since slice bread" and "there was no show like it". Basically you regurgitated everything I said hence why im befuddled at your post more then the others who quoted me.

There hasn't been anything even LIKE Bebop in several years much less as on the same level of quality. Cowboy Bebop is timeless. It truly is. Because it's animation still looks great, it's characters aged very well and it's just as compelling today as it was when it first was produced. New people discover Bebop all the time so it's not just nostalgia at the helm. Personally I was never a big fan of Bebop but I've always maintained a healthy respect for it.

As much as I adore Cowboy Bebop, isnt what you've just said really just a matter of opinion, not to mention a little hyperbolic? Are you seriously gonna tell me there hasn't been anything like Bebop in years because if you are then you either stopped watching anime in 2002 or are just really bad at picking up good series to watch :/

It's one of the only Japanese cartoons I'd consider worthy of a top 10 cartoons of all time list. I like some shows better but I'd never argue they are actually better made, written, acted, storyboarded, scored, etc. Quality sides with Bebop even today it's still a unique and engaging experience.

Bebop is not without its flaws, like any anime out there. Take away the filler, the character introductions and you can count the number of plot progression episodes on one hand not to mention characterization is absent in Bebop. And obviously yes there are better written animes out there and in terms of uniqueness, hell Outlaw Star did the whole bounty hunters in space thing first.

But I'll bite, what shows coming out in Japan today are apparently managing to average out Cowboy Bebop? I'm really curious what you're answer is.

Before I proceed, Id like to point out that just because you glorify the past doesnt mean Cowboy Bebop is the greatest anime of all time or that there isnt any anime out there that could even carry its jockstrap (figuratively of course). But Ill comply with your curiosity.

Gungrave, Full Metal Alchemist, Black Lagoon, Paranoia Agent, GANTZ, Monster, the list goes on. Rather or not these series are better then Bebop is really just a matter of opinion. But heres the point, a newbie anime watcher wouldnt be able to differentiate CB's value to anime from those other titles. Id wager to say that most of our generation view Bebop in a different light then the current generation. Bebop came during animes infancy in America when our only resource came in the form of early 90's anime (with outdated storyboards and animation) or children's shows. Bebop was a breath of fresh air, our evidence that anime wasn't just for kids or preteens or nerds. But in the eyes of a newbie anime watcher, whats the difference between CB and Black Lagoon? Or Baccano? Hence why the word average was thrown in my post...

 

[Sketch]

Hmmmm friend, I somehow have a hard time believing someone such as yourself lacks reading comprehension, but alas thats exactly what you just proved right now.

Well that was petty of you.

With the mass amount of titles out there I still find your term average to be misleading if nothing else.

There are shows I like better than Bebop, I assure you of that. I realize it is not without it's flaws, nothing is without it's flaws. I happen to like the cast of Outlaw Star better and as you pointed out, it did the bounty hunter's in space first.

Now even if I agreed with all of the titles you just suggested as being "as good as Bebop" 6 or 7 (8?) titles. That's not exactly average. When the average show coming out of Japan today streaming on crunchyroll is nothing like Bebop and nowhere near as good as the titles you mentioned or Bebop. You have to cherry pick the best titles of the past 10-15 years to come up with all that many titles that are on par with Bebop.

Though for the record of the titles you've mentioned. I have not seen Gungrave, Black Lagoon or Monster. The GANTZ anime is hardly that good, I greatly enjoyed Fullmetal Alchemist though my appreciation for it has lessened as I saw other anime over the years, Baccano is the best anime I've seen in recent years and Paranoia Agent is a master piece and those are not easy to come by.

I would add to the list of similarly good anime, the Ghost in the Shell TV series, Durarara, Gurren Lagan (albiet nowhere near the same tone), Samurai Champloo and perhaps Darker than Black and while I have not seen much of it myself I feel Michiko no Hatchin is worth a mention.

But let's say hypothetically you can come up with 20 titles to come out since Bebop or maybe even more than that. How is that average when there are hundreds of titles out there which don't even come close? So perhaps my problem is your use of the word average more than anything else. Such quality titles are rather few and far between and we've only realized this now because we're much more aware of everything else that comes out in Japan than we were in years prior.

On mainstream television they'd likely first be exposed to Bleach, Kekkaishi or FMA: Brotherhood unless they were even aware Syfy airs anime at 1AM-3AM. Or they might first see the usual Pokemons, Bakugans, Beyblades, DBZ Kai or Naruto Shippuden. That's assuming they don't go straight to streaming online and certainly some of them do. In which case there's no telling what they might watch first but the backlog of exceptional titles isn't that strong online either unless you know where to look (and mind you I'm still implying legal streams). The modern anime fan is more than likely to be presented a popular shounen before seeing anything else. Though there may be some who will stay up late watching the rest of the ASA block and stumble upon Bebop and GitS and I rather hope they do.

New people are discovering Bebop all the time through that or word of mouth and if it happens to be their first anime or their most recent one after seeing several other quality titles they're still just as likely to find something unique and exceptional about Cowboy Bebop. I'm being entirely objective here though it's also just a theory based on my objective appreciation of Bebop. My personal tastes put Bebop much lower on the spectrum than various shows many people would consider inferior in almost every way. I honestly don't care much for the story of Bebop, I'd even say it's not a very interesting story but the show happens to be exceptionally good at conveying the story none the less. It's a very well executed cartoon, "filler" and all. And while it's not entirely rare after all these years it is certainly not average.

 

[Desensitized]

It's not really an opinion that none of those shows are similar to Cowboy Bebop except in having action sequences. Or in Monster, Full Metal Alchemist, Paranoia Agent, and Gantz's case of being an entirely different genre. If newer audiences can't see the difference between psychological thrillers, action shows, mysteries, and sci-fi, then that's really more their problem.

Superficial similarities aside, none of those do anything similar to Cowboy Bebop other than having general action sequences. They don't share themes, ideas, characters, or even plots.

By the way, Cowboy Bebop not having an ongoing plot is not a flaw, its a different style of storytelling. Every episode is an episode, a viewing window into the universe of Cowboy Bebop and how it works through the eyes of the characters. It's not a serial, and not being a serial is not a flaw. And the space bounty hunter similarity is, again, a superficial similarity that has nothing to do with the core of the show.

It actually has a lot more in common with Lupin than Gantz, if we're going to analyze it.

 

[SSJPabs]

I think the only way I can describe Bebop is that it's greatness lies in it not being embarrassing in the slightest to watch it in front of people who don't watch or even like anime much. Most shows, even good ones, have elements that when looked at from beyond the conventions of anime are ridiculous. I find it baffling that people want it to have a dedicated story arc. Has it been that many years that serial dramas dominated TV?

It goes beyond being a good anime or good genre show and just becomes simply good television. I still haven't ever seen anything like it.

@Desensitized -- I kind of feel a similar way about Lupin so you might be on to something.

 

[Sketch]

I always considered Bebop to be a more serious take on the Lupin formula.

There might also be two arguments here

There are shows that are "as good" as Bebop and there are shows that are "similar" to Bebop. How they are similar differs from everything to music, tone, character dynamic, overall plot and the premise based around a group of bounty hunters or the setting of a space western.

Show's don't have to be similar in style to Bebop to be as good as Bebop. Most of the shows I feel are on par with Bebop don't have much in common with Bebop.

Likewise there are more than a handful of shows that share similarities but that doesn't necessarily make them as well executed as Bebop.

And if you want to just compare fight scenes, Bebop had some really fantastic ones that are hard to match much less top even with shows that center around fighting.

Yoko Kanno scored other anime. Watanabe and his various staff worked on other anime with varying results.

So stepping aside from similarity as it might be my fault for bringing that arguement up and focusing entirely on quality of the works as a whole you have a decent amount of contenders over the years but how many of them really are better at being what they are than Bebop is better at being what it is? Again if you feel there are enough that are better that still doesn't make Bebop or those shows average anime. That makes them exceptional. The average anime is far less accessible to all audiences and considerably less polished. The average anime is nothing to write home about it. It's a one time watch at best that will likely be forgotten in the long run. Cowboy Bebop is not average.