Toonami Ratings

[HG Revolution]

HGR, you don't know what you're talking about. The Laughing Man that preceded the 2nd GIG sold over 17k units in fall, 2005. That's elite company. The 2nd GIG avg'd over 20k units for each vol. That's elite company as well. As for the 1st movie it sold nearly 55k units & Solid State Society sold over 36K units in 2006. That far exceeds what it sold in the states. Innocence was a bust in both parts of the world. It's dumb to use that as a barometer. Even so a re-edited version of that sold nearly 5k units in 2008. That's well above the 3k avg fig for anime titles in JP that yr. GitS' prominence in manga/anime sales in JP is only part of it's success story there. It's the most licensed sci-fi seinen property ever there. You can find GitS toys in the stores there even now. It puts Bebops anime sales to shame. So any suggestion that Turner had any involvement in JP productions of one of the most successful seinen titles ever in Japan is nonsense. [line]2[/line] Your suggestion that GitS is anything but a global beater amongst seinen titles is equally nonsense. Check it out at animenewsnetwork & look at the bottom to see how many languages it's been broadcast in. I would not be surprised if it's EU or LA sales eclipse it's NA ones. [line]2[/line] As for Turner having perpetual tv & online rights in NA for GitS, I've not been able to find a source for that but it makes sense given that Manga Ent owns the video distribution rights. Selling what it had at the time to Turner in exchange for recurring revenue streams is probably the best Bandai could do. Wrt to Bebop, I believe Bandai still holds those video distribution rights in NA & is seeking to sell those to the highest bidder. If that's the case then selling recurring licenses makes a lot more sense than perpetual ones.

GitS:SAC was a hit in Japan but think about the franchise before GitS:SAC. The movie lost money at the Japanese box office. It recouped through video sales which were strong internationally. Since they had an international hit, why wouldn't they accept international money for a TV series? Of course if Turner got perpetual rights some other way it doesn't change the outcome.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

HGR, you're such a fountain of mis-information on this subject I can't keep up. How far are you going to back-pedal on this? The bo success/failure of the first film (which I will get to shortly) has no bearing on anime series production. It never has! It's the success of manga & licensing revenue from manga sales that determines anime productions. GitS was one of the best selling sci-fi seinen titles in JP well before the anime series went into production. GitS was already selling licenses for toys & such before the anime series went into production in 2001. It first aired in JP & on Asia Animax shortly thereafter & wasn't announced for [as] until spring 2004. It first aired on English tv in Nov, 2004. There is clearly no reason why any studio involved in the production of GitS would need Turner's $ during the high growth yrs of the anime industry there, but even if you did believe otherwise you still have to stretch that nonsense to believing that Turner would put up money for any anime series 3 yrs prior to ever airing it. That's lunancy. [line]2[/line] Back to the BO for the 1st film. You clearly do not know what success/failure means in terms of anime related BO in N A. During it's entire run EVA 1.11 which lasted for over 100 days never passed $300k a few yrs back. Ghost in the Shell made over $2.3m in it's initial run in JP in 1995, & over $550k in it's NA run in 1996. What do you think $2.3m was in yen back then? I'll put it this way. By 2000, there were JP companies turned away from being involved in the first series production. That first series production committee had received a record breaking 800m yen at the time. So again, there was zero reason to seek Turner's cash for any GitS production. It's obvious that before production on the first series went into planning in late 2000, the ROI on the first film was considered a huge success. It was not uncommon for films in the 90's to reap more $ from video distribution than the BO. The 1997 Matrix which was heavily influenced by GitS is a prime example of that. The only reason why Manga Ent was a part of it early on is because they were a main player in the global distribution of both the film & manga before 2000. Manga Ent essentially built it's fortune on the back of GitS. They had a much lesser role in the 2nd series production, & they have been shut out of Arise.

 

[HG Revolution]

HGR, you're such a fountain of mis-information on this subject I can't keep up. How far are you going to back-pedal on this? The bo success/failure of the first film (which I will get to shortly) has no bearing on anime series production. It never has! It's the success of manga & licensing revenue from manga sales that determines anime productions. GitS was one of the best selling sci-fi seinen titles in JP well before the anime series went into production. GitS was already selling licenses for toys & such before the anime series went into production in 2001. It first aired in JP & on Asia Animax shortly thereafter & wasn't announced for [as] until spring 2004. It first aired on English tv in Nov, 2004. There is clearly no reason why any studio involved in the production of GitS would need Turner's $ during the high growth yrs of the anime industry there, but even if you did believe otherwise you still have to stretch that nonsense to believing that Turner would put up money for any anime series 3 yrs prior to ever airing it. That's lunancy. [line]2[/line] Back to the BO for the 1st film. You clearly do not know what success/failure means in terms of anime related BO in N A. During it's entire run EVA 1.11 which lasted for over 100 days never passed $300k a few yrs back. Ghost in the Shell made over $2.3m in it's initial run in JP in 1995, & over $550k in it's NA run in 1996. What do you think $2.3m was in yen back then? I'll put it this way. By 2000, there were JP companies turned away from being involved in the first series production. That first series production committee had received a record breaking 800m yen at the time. So again, there was zero reason to seek Turner's cash for any GitS production. It's obvious that before production on the first series went into planning in late 2000, the ROI on the first film was considered a huge success. The only reason why Manga Ent was a part of it early on is because they were a main player in the global distribution of both the film & manga before 2000. Manga Ent essentially built it's fortune on the back of GitS. They had a much lesser role in the 2nd series production, & they have been shut out of Arise.

Why the personal insults? "Fountain of mis-information"? "Lunacy"? Why so angry about this?

I will politely note that GitS:SAC was announced for AS back at Comic-Con 2002 (https://www.toonzone.net/forums/too...dult-swim-acquisitions-more.html#.UUc8ul1QgZI), that the 600 billion yen budget (going by the 1996 exchange rate, that's over $5.7 million; more if we're going by the '95 or '94 rates) would mean that the first GitS movie's original box office didn't come close to making back its budget until after video sales (which were great worldwide), and that while the series could have been made without Turner's money, that doesn't mean Turner wouldn't have wanted a piece of it given the franchise's popularity in America and the fact they bought the rights so damn early compared to when it aired.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

Ridiculous. You're only proof of a prior annoucement is a toonzone post that can easily be edited by the author. The official announcement came in spring, 2004 & it aired in Nov, 2004. You're BO argument for the first film is equally ridiculous because 6 yrs separates the JP rel date & the start of production on the first series. The film's ROI from home video distribution alone easily turned a profit many times over. How many $'s do you think 55k units are worth? When a person's argument lacks little to no credibility it's par for the course to call it what it is: nonsense. [line]2[/line] As for Sat's TOONAMI ratings, I will be shocked if EVA 1.11 didn't beat the 1-3:30a lineup from last wk & destroy last yrs: (711+599+494+437+350k).

 

[Beefy]

I'm not sure I want to get involved in this, but I'll just say that Turner probably is not on the production committee for Stand Alone Complex, but rather they negotiated a deal for the US broadcast rights directly from Production I.G and/or the production committee instead of from Bandai/Manga.

Just like how they got the broadcast rights to Moribito and FLCL directly from Production I.G.

 

[HG Revolution]

Ridiculous. You're only proof of a prior annoucement is a toonzone post that can easily be edited by the author. The official announcement came in spring, 2004 & it aired in Nov, 2004. You're BO argument for the first film is equally ridiculous because 6 yrs separates the JP rel date & the start of production on the first series. The film's ROI from home video distribution alone easily turned a profit many times over. How many $'s do you think 55k units is worth? When a person's argument lacks little to no credibility it's par for the course to call it what it is: nonsense.

Where's this 55k number coming from?

More evidence the show was announced for AS at Comic Con 2002 (two months before the Japanese airdate):
Comic-con Adult Swim News - News - Anime News Network
AnimeNation Anime News Blog » Blog Archive » Adult Swim News from San Diego Comic Con
ICv2 - Ghost in the Shell 2--The Dark Horse Interview

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

If you are foolish enough to doubt the ROI success of the first GitS film you are welcome to look up it's units sold at animesuki. They keep track of dvd sales in JP there & provide credible sources as well. As for your ANN CC 2002 evidence that only helps your argument on that. It weakens it otherwise. If Turner had any involvement in the production of the series in JP it would not have taken over 2 yrs from the date of that announcement to air on a Turner network! [line]2[/line] As has already been pointed out to you, Bandai didn't have GitS NA rights. Manga Ent had video distribution & Prod I.G. had remaining tv & online rights. You are obviously confusing IGPX with GitS because the CC announcement coincides with IGPX's production schedule. That has nothing to do with GitS prod sched for either s1 or s2.

 

[HG Revolution]

If you are foolish enough to doubt the ROI success of the first GitS film you are welcome to look up it's units sold at animesuki. They keep track of dvd sales in JP there & provide credible sources as well. As for your ANN CC 2002 evidence that only helps your argument on that. It weakens it otherwise. If Turner had any involvement in the production of the series in JP it would not have taken over 2 yrs from the date of that announcement to air on a Turner network! [line]2[/line] As has already been pointed out to you, Bandai didn't have GitS NA rights. Manga Ent had video distribution & Prod I.G. had remaining tv & online rights. You are obviously confusing IGPX with GitS because the CC announcement coincides with IGPX's production schedule. That has nothing to do with GitS prod sched for either s1 or s2.

Stop calling me foolish and other insults, especially when you demand I give sources but you don't link to sources yourself.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

Since looking up DVD sales at animesuki is too difficult for you, try this: Production I.G [WHAT'S NEW]. The graphic novel Ghost in the Shell, originally created by Shirow Masamune in 1989, was transposed into an animated feature film in 1995, instantly earning worldwide success and topping N. 1 of Billboard Magazine video sales chart in 1996, marking an unprecedented achievement for a Japanese animated production. The movie Ghost in the Shell, directed by Mamoru Oshii, further proved to have great influence on Hollywood creators, starting from the Wachowski brothers' The Matrix. [line]2[/line] Combine that with the fact they received a then record 800m yen from JP companies over 2000-2001 for the production of the first anime series, & it's obvious the first film produced a many-fold ROI for them & they had no need of money from Turner. [line]2[/line] I can see how someone would be confused over the 2002 CC report if they didn't know the difference between IGPX & GitS. One was a monumentally expensive failure that didn't exceed 5 ep, & the other is a worldwide success [line]2[/line] As for your 2002 CC links, this 2004 link supercedes that in terms of credibility & importance: Bandai and Manga join together to release Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex - Anime News Network It's obvious after reading that Bandai jumped the gun in 2002. Nothing could be finalized with any party until they first reached agreement with Manga Ent. Bandai never had the tv or video rights to SAC in 2002. ME did. ME eventually sublicensed all production to Bandai.

 

[Ishtar]

No offense RIF, but when the people who actually run Toonami say that Turner has perpetual rights to GITS because it was a co-production, I am much more willing to believe them over someone like yourself who is likely NOT in the TV business. Just because you can analyze things the way you do does not mean you know how the business works better than the people who are actually in it. Jason and his crew have no reason to lie about such a thing. Honestly the way you are responding makes you come across as someone who doesn't like to be proven wrong. Even when you are given evidence against your claims.

As for another reason why Turner would have an involvement with GITS, it has been said from time and time again that they have a good relationship with Bandai. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

I have said repeatedly I don't give a **** what you believe. But for me to believe something I have to see sizeable proof. What you claim someone said or not is not sizeable proof. As I've pointed out you can't even claim something said at a CC is irrefutable proof because Bandai never held the NA rights to GitS. Manga Ent did/does. They sublicensed all production to Bandai. That's irrefutable as there is physical evidence in the video distribution itself.

 

[HG Revolution]

Since looking up DVD sales at animesuki is too difficult for you, try this: Production I.G [WHAT'S NEW]. The graphic novel Ghost in the Shell, originally created by Shirow Masamune in 1989, was transposed into an animated feature film in 1995, instantly earning worldwide success and topping N. 1 of Billboard Magazine video sales chart in 1996, marking an unprecedented achievement for a Japanese animated production. The movie Ghost in the Shell, directed by Mamoru Oshii, further proved to have great influence on Hollywood creators, starting from the Wachowski brothers' The Matrix.

Billboard Magazine records American sales. So obviously American success was a huge contributor to the film's profit. And it explains why AS at least bought permanent broadcast rights to the show before it even started airing in Japan (they might not officially be producers of the show, but I can see how they could have been even if they didn't need to be).

 

[RockmanDash]

I have said repeatedly I don't give a **** what you believe

So why should we care about what you believe? I'd rather listen to an official tumblr post made by people who run the actual block than have a long argument with somebody who doesn't even work in the business.

 

[wjbraden]

I am failing to see what this has to do with Toonami Ratings. Please stop.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

When did I ever say you should care? You don't seem to understand how a discussion board works. You claim something, I say you're full of ****, provide ample evidence as to why, you provide what you can, & as long as you continue to claim your're right, I'll continue to claim you're full of ****. I'm not going to end until you do. As to what this has to do with TOONAMI ratings it's rather simple. GitS was abruptly taken off TOONAMI last Aug. It has yet to appear again. Ratings wise it wasn't doing poorly, occasionally beating Bebop with it's 1st ep. That's reason enough to believe they no longer have it. Until it appeals again, everything else is heresay. [line]2[/line] If someone whats to believe that [as] made a 2001 investment in a GitS series before [as] was on the air & after production on that series had already begun given that it didn't air until Nov, 2004 on [as] that's their right. But that doesn't exclude the right of any one else to point out what nonsense that is & provide ample evidence as to why.

 

[RockmanDash]

When did I ever say you should care? You don't seem to understand how a discussion board works. You claim something, I say you're full of ****, provide ample evidence

Funny, because you don't seem to understand we have rules here about treating others with respect. And again, you don't seem to understand that we already got countless Tumblr posts stating that they still have the series.

I would suggest taking a breather.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

Respect goes both ways. When I challenge others I respond no differently to the tone in which they challenge me. I'm just more colorful in my choosing of words. I'll take sales figures, license rights, & credible sources like ANN that actually provide details about a series production over twits any day.

 

[HG Revolution]

Respect goes both ways. When I challenge others I respond no differently to the tone in which they challenge me. I'm just more colorful in my choosing of words. I'll take sales figures, license rights, & credible sources like ANN that actually provide details about a series production over twits any day.

Um, your choices of words do impact your tone. Dramatically.

And regardless of what the deal is with why, we do know that they still have the broadcast rights to GitS:SAC and they've said repeatedly it will return to the block, so why would they lie about that?

 

[RockmanDash]

Respect goes both ways. When I challenge others I respond no differently to the tone in which they challenge me. I'm just more colorful in my choosing of words. I'll take sales figures, license rights, & credible sources like ANN that actually provide details about a series production over twits any day.

There is no "tone" they are challenging you with. The main problem that makes your posts discouraging to read is that you constantly have a habit of making insults with them. People are able to speak to each other without going so far to disrespect by calling others "foolish" or cursing to prove a point. Guess what? Others disagreeing with you is also something that will happen on discussion boards and that doesn't mean you should just insult them like they are insects. I think you have plenty of interesting thoughts and I honestly don't think you're that bad of a guy.

As WjBraden was trying to uphold, this is the Toonami Ratings Thread and thus this discussion is over.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

Because, HGR, maybe he didn't first clear it with legal before he twitted about it. Do you think DeMarco or any one else that shows up on Sat night has only twits things that are 100% cleared with legal beforehand? The facts are that GitS was abruptly taken off last Aug & has not returned since. I've already provided evidence that there was no ratings justification for it's removal at the time as it's avg beat FmB the week prior. If cost is not a factor in bringing it back then why is CB still on a b2b run? GitS ratings were on par with CB over the summer. Why for that matter are two CN series getting 2nd immediate runs when GitS offers both more prestige & a larger adult fan base than either of those two? These are legit ?'s to ask in the face of the twits. [line]2[/line] Putting the colorful language aside, there is the ? of what is possible & what is probable. For something to be more probable than something else there must be a strong justfication. Turner having anything to do with GitS production at any time is not probable for the reasons I stated. There was no $ justification (refer to the then record 800m yen received from JP investors for the series) & there was no programming justification. Turner didn't air anything related to GitS prior to Nov, 2004. As it has been since revealed that Bandai didn't possess the cable rights to sell to [as] what is the strong justification for Manga Ent or Prod IG to sell perpetual cable rights to [as]? I would think it's the other way around. With Arise coming, those rights are worth more & since SyFy dabbled in GitS before who's to say they wouldn't again?