Biggest Bombs for AS Anime

[TheVileOne]

Secondly, people are knocking on the shows like Paranoia Agent because it's out of place in a specific demographic. It's like putting a kiddie show like Arthur on Spike TV, or taking out wresting which was your biggest rating grabber and replacing it with failing chick shows *glares at CW*

Variety is good! Some of the greatest works of all time don't play to certain demographics and aren't all that successful.

Paranoia Agent was a dark, edgy, adult, and sophisticated show. It was a perfect fit for Adult Swim. I watched it every week and I'm glad they picked it up. They aired the entire show, so really what's the problem? It didn't have much of an audience. Oh well, that happens. That's the nature of the business. Success is defined by failure and vice versa.

Your comparisons are silly honestly. To me there's nothing written that a show like Paranoia Agent could NOT be put on Adult Swim. Adult Swim has had some bizarre weird stuff since the beginning. They try different things some that work some that don't.

You act as if Paranoia Agent should never have been aired. I find that offensive.

 

[Eleanor Hugbees]

To borrow an argument made oft before: Because if you judge only on popularity, Transformers II is the best movie ever. And because I think there is only so much you can accomplish when you're premiering a new, low-profile show at 1:30 AM on a Saturday evening.

I thought that just meant it had a high turn out rate, not that it's was the best. What did poorly on Adult Swim sounds like a question of ratings and popularity to me. I'm not negating the quality of any of these shows. Hell, Lupin the 3rd and Astro Boy are anime icons. I just don't see how one person saying Milk Chan and Paranoia Agent is garbage while another person says it's the greatest thing ever answers the question.

 

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Variety is good! Some of the greatest works of all time don't play to certain demographics and aren't all that successful.

Paranoia Agent was a dark, edgy, adult, and sophisticated show. It was a perfect fit for Adult Swim. I watched it every week and I'm glad they picked it up. They aired the entire show, so really what's the problem? It didn't have much of an audience. Oh well, that happens. That's the nature of the business. Success is defined by failure and vice versa.

Your comparisons are silly honestly. To me there's nothing written that a show like Paranoia Agent could NOT be put on Adult Swim. Adult Swim has had some bizarre weird stuff since the beginning. They try different things some that work some that don't.

You act as if Paranoia Agent should never have been aired. I find that offensive.

In cases like this I always like to blame the audience more than the programmers , but I think the general thrust is that even those people here who like Paranoia Agent personally, don't feel it was very marketable from the beginning. There's weird...and then there's TOO weird.

From what I see AS tends to air "weird" only if it's accompanied by "crass low humour." Paranoia Agent was designed to keep you on your toes from the beginning, and that's just asking too much out of AS' core audience. I don't know how GITS did, but ultimately I would think that might share a similar fate, as did Moribito.

It's unfair that we're picking on Paranoia Agent, but from what I see, at least 3/5 of their selections tend not to be mainstream friendly. I mean, stuff like GITS, Paranoia Agent, Moribito, Witch Hunter Robin and Wolf's Rain all tend to be pretty aggressively un-mainstream, so I can see why there is some criticism here of Kim's selections as a whole. This is no slight on those shows, but more than there's too much of these non-casual-friendly shows here. They needed more of the "ease your brain and kick butt" type anime. Black Lagoon would have been an excellent pickup. Read or Die the TV would have been solid. Fantasy anime like Berserk, or Claymore.

It's very unfortunate that this is the case, but from a business perspective, I see the point others are trying to make.

 

[Master Moron]

I don't think Geass was a bad attempt, but that's simply not true.

Yoshida said that all 27 episodes of the show will air on SciFi's AniMondays block, and that a Starz representative told him that Gurren Lagann is the most popular anime show ever aired in the block.

That means absolutely nothing since we haven't seen any numbers for the AniMonday block. For all we know it gets lower ratings than Adult Swim Saturday.

 

[Vyse]

GITS IS AS MAINSTREAM AS APPLE PIE! How do you, Leaping Larry Jojo, see GITS as "arthouse" or in the same "FAIL" category people like Beat and myself have thrown Moribito and Wolf's Rain into? Stand Alone Complex, in my opinion, had the perfect blend of action and dialog and was better than the original movie, which is considered to be one of the most important animes amongst mainstream sources like ANN and AoDVD/Mania. Heck, IGPX was promoted with the phrase "From the creators of Ghost In The Shell," and that ad was on Toonami and CN proper. It is not a failure in my eye, and I don't consider shows like Champloo (better than Afro), FLCL, and Trigun as failures. Even Death Note, which I stopped watching after a while and consider it to be overrated (Moral Orel season 3 is infinity times better), isn't a failure in my book.

However, some types of shows worked and some don't. However, shows that are mindless and/or have fanservice that makes Kim Manning kill puppies due to rage haven't been given the chance to be tried. Like Witchblade. I honestly believed it could have been a hit, or at least picked up, on [as] due to name recognition alone (anime interpretation of known Image/Top Cow comic) but wasn't due to its fanservice. However, it wasn't a fanservicey show, as some of us who expected it to be nothing but it were either impressed that it had a decent story (like on the IFC talkback thread) and others were disappointed by plot and lack of overt fanservice (like my anime club, which almost removed it from the schedule if I hadn't pleaded). Again, we'll never know because Kim Manning stinks.

And, seriously, if she's still around to put the English dub of White Album on there, I would stop watching [as] entirely, even for the comedy. White Album is a drama through and through and is based on a popular visual novel game. I've watched the first episode and felt uninterested, bored, and confused. Rumbling Hearts, another anime based on a visual novel, was better than that. Similarly, I watched the first episode of Moribito and felt bored and uninterested and stopped watching it ever since. I won't even watch it if it aired in HD (and I mean real HD like in Bleach movie 2, not that BS stretch). And I actually gave Paranoia Agent and Wolf's Rain shots due to falling in-and-out-and-in-again (watching-stop watching-resume watching).

While she may have inherited it, Moribito was the last straw. While I may disagree with him on some anime (I liked E7), I agree with Beat in that Kim Manning needs to go. She is the Matt Millen of Adult Swim. If shows like Basara to come on, she needs to be fired and replaced by someone else. In my opinion, someone who would consider airing the HBO series Spawn at 1am on [as] Fridays as unedited as possible. Crap, I would get behind a person who would even consider putting Queen's Blade on [as]. Yes, it's a creatively bankrupt decision, but I have a curiosity to see if it would work; although, in my opinion, Queen's Blade would be better finding an audience with IFC.

 

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

GITS is not mainstream Vyse. It's more accessible than the movies but honestly, show it to any non-anime fan and it'll fly over their heads. Politics geeks and Blade Runner fanatics are the only non-anime fans who seemed to like it from my circle of acquaintances.

Don't get me wrong. I love it. But what I like and what everyone else prefers is a wide gap indeed.

 

[Master Moron]

Damn, imagine that job interview.

"Well Mr. Hitler, we. Think your resume is adequate but it lacks that punch we really need for top level executive. We can start you mid-level, see how it works out."

"Nyet."

I don't suppose there's anyone willing to defend Kim's choices, is there?

Well, Kim Manning is a mother, right? Maybe she picked up all of those shows when she was pregnant and the hormones are to blame.

GITS is not mainstream Vyse. It's more accessible than the movies but honestly, show it to any non-anime fan and it'll fly over their heads. Politics geeks and Blade Runner fanatics are the only non-anime fans who seemed to like it from my circle of acquaintances.

Don't get me wrong. I love it. But what I like and what everyone else prefers is a wide gap indeed.

Ghost in the Shell was actually getting great ratings when it first premiered. However, it also got the advantage of a Full Metal Alchemist lead in. Full Metal Alchemist was getting over 600,000 viewers at one point, and Ghost in the Shell was just a hundred thousand or so behind Full Metal Alchemist.

 

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

Well, Kim Manning is a mother, right? Maybe she picked up all of those shows when she was pregnant and the hormones are to blame.



Ghost in the Shell was actually getting great ratings when it first premiered. However, it also got the advantage of a Full Metal Alchemist lead in. Full Metal Alchemist was getting over 600,000 viewers at one point, and Ghost in the Shell was just a hundred thousand or so behind Full Metal Alchemist.

I wasn't sure how well GITS did. I figured it did have name-cache going for it at least.

Joe Casual: "Ghost in the Shell? Durr, yeah I done heard of it! Wuzzn't it that Japanime that hit #1 on Billboard video charts once?"

...

How did 2nd gig do?

That said, GITS still isn't a mainstream friendly show. Do any of you really want me to post an excerpt of typical GITS SAC dialogue? Trust me, you'll agree with me then when you see an example of it in print.

 

[Desensitized]

I'm surprised no one has compared non-Adult shows airing on Adult Swim to live action airing on Cartoon Network yet.

But I just think calling specific titles out for bombing when almost the entire 'genre' that airs on Adult Swim bombs is kind of strange. Not even the 'high rating' anime rate that high, and it probably costs AS less to pick those 'boring' series up than it does for the long running or more popular teen and kid shows that Japan enjoys.

But that's just me. I think TV shows that succeed are more successful beyond just their ratings, especially when a bunch of the 'better rated' shows still do rather terrible. That just seems like a poor way to judge success in this case.

 

[Master Moron]

I wasn't sure how well GITS did. I figured it did have name-cache going for it at least.

Joe Casual: "Ghost in the Shell? Durr, yeah I done heard of it! Wuzzn't it that Japanime that hit #1 on Billboard video charts once?"

...

How did 2nd gig do?

That said, GITS still isn't a mainstream friendly show. Do any of you really want me to post an excerpt of typical GITS SAC dialogue? Trust me, you'll agree with me then when you see an example of it in print.

I don't think it did as well as the first season but I think that was due to the second season of Full Metal Alchemist not doing as well as the first season. Since Full Metal Alchemist wasn't doing as well, it affected Ghost in the Shell.

 

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

I'm surprised no one has compared non-Adult shows airing on Adult Swim to live action airing on Cartoon Network yet.

But I just think calling specific titles out for bombing when almost the entire 'genre' that airs on Adult Swim bombs is kind of strange. Not even the 'high rating' anime rate that high, and it probably costs AS less to pick those 'boring' series up than it does for the long running or more popular teen and kid shows that Japan enjoys.

But that's just me. I think TV shows that succeed are more successful beyond just their ratings, especially when a bunch of the 'better rated' shows still do rather terrible. That just seems like a poor way to judge success in this case.

Agreed. This is just the cold hard truth. Anime just isn't very popular. There's simply no way around that fact.

 

[GWOtaku]

That means absolutely nothing since we haven't seen any numbers for the AniMonday block. For all we know it gets lower ratings than Adult Swim Saturday.

Eh, I think that's reaching. What's to stop me or anyone from using that reasoning to argue positively for Ani-Monday since for all we know, the numbers are higher? But in any case, we can't dodge the obvious fact that it was considered very successful for that block. We can use some common sense here. Surely we can agree that a Paranoia Agent-level performance likely isn't considered successful by the SyFy channel's standards? I find the opposite possibility...rather unlikely. It's certainly no accident that it aired twice.

 

[Beat]

Agreed. This is just the cold hard truth. Anime just isn't very popular. There's simply no way around that fact.

Well sure, if it's taken as a collective. I don't do that. You need to judge shows on their specific merits rather than have this big "made in Japan" lump. It's like comparing cricket and MMA because they're both sports. I think some shows can get solid popularity (FMA was mentioned on the OC when the first season was airing) some can't. Which brings me back to my initial argument.

 

[Vyse]

I wasn't sure how well GITS did. I figured it did have name-cache going for it at least.

Joe Casual: "Ghost in the Shell? Durr, yeah I done heard of it! Wuzzn't it that Japanime that hit #1 on Billboard video charts once?"

To me, that is mainstream, in terms of anime (man, why does my lnaguage have to be clarified?). If it has name-recognition from beyond the anime circle, it's mainstream. I'm not that dumb or naive, as you may have painted me.

Besides, don't we also track the top 3 in the "Anything Else" threads for a long time? I think those cards, which help us gauge the ratings on Saturday, might be helpful. Unless, of course, those cards weren't around when FMA and GITS were airing.

And, I always assumed GITS was successful. It maintained most of the ratings of the lead-in that was FMA in the beginning and I can understand the loss in ratings when 2nd Gig debuted. The break in between FMA S1/1st Gig and FMA S2/2nd Gig hurt them more than anything due to the loss of momentum. Especially for FMA as it ended on a cliffhanger for S1.

 

[Master Moron]

Eh, I think that's reaching. What's to stop me or anyone from using that reasoning to argue positively for Ani-Monday since for all we know, the numbers are higher? But in any case, we can't dodge the obvious fact that it was considered very successful for that block. We can use some common sense here. Surely we can agree that a Paranoia Agent-level performance likely isn't considered successful by the SyFy channel's standards? I find the opposite possibility...rather unlikely. It's certainly no accident that it aired twice.

SyFy gets about half as many viewers as Adult Swim does. People keep on saying that Adult Swim should have picked up Gurren Lagann rather than Code Geass due to the former being a success while the later was a bomb, but being a success or a bomb is relative to the network.

For that matter, the quote didn't actually say that Gurren Lagann was a success for the network, it just said it was the highest rated show on the block. We don't even know if SyFy considers the block a success. Yes, Manga considers the block a success. Yes, the ratings have been up over what aired there before. But, so what? We don't know what the ratings were for what aired before. This is all baseless speculation.

Besides, don't we also track the top 3 in the "Anything Else" threads for a long time? I think those cards, which help us gauge the ratings on Saturday, might be helpful. Unless, of course, those cards weren't around when FMA and GITS were airing.

No, those cards were around for quite some time. I think they first started when Adult Swim moved back to Saturdays with new episodes of Inu-yasha and Wolf's Rain. You can probably find them if you do a search. Though, I'm not sure exactly when Full Metal Alchemist and Ghost in the Shell aired.

 

[GWOtaku]

I agree that success is relative to the network and that it's not a given that GL would have been a smash on Adult Swim (defined as Champloo or FMA or GiTS-level numbers). And sure, we don't have all the data at our fingertips. But from where I'm standing you're basically asking me and others to take it on faith that it's just as likely that Ani-Monday performs badly but continues anyway as it is that it continues on with the support of new programming because it's considered successful enough to merit that. I think that's a counterintuitive thing to believe, and certainly just as speculative as anything else that's been said. I think a better argument would be that the viewing audiences are different at least to a degree, so what works for one network wouldn't necessarily translate perfectly to another.

 

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

To me, that is mainstream, in terms of anime (man, why does my lnaguage have to be clarified?). If it has name-recognition from beyond the anime circle, it's mainstream. I'm not that dumb or naive, as you may have painted me.

.

I wasn't implying you were dumb or naive and my Joe Casual example certainly wasn't there to represent you. I was discussing this with you with the assumption that you were an anime fan. Like me.

 

[Mister Miracle]

It can't get bombier than Moribito. The show may be good, but it's had no success whatsoever.

only reason the show had no success, is because Adult Swim is at a point where anime doesnt matter to them anymore. They didnt even promote!

 

[Master Moron]

I agree that success is relative to the network and that it's not a given that GL would have been a smash on Adult Swim (defined as Champloo or FMA or GiTS-level numbers). And sure, we don't have all the data at our fingertips. But from where I'm standing you're basically asking me and others to take it on faith that it's just as likely that Ani-Monday performs badly but continues anyway as it is that it continues on with the support of new programming because it's considered successful enough to merit that. I think that's a counterintuitive thing to believe, and certainly just as speculative as anything else that's been said. I think a better argument would be that the viewing audiences are different at least to a degree, so what works for one network wouldn't necessarily translate perfectly to another.

No, I'm not asking you to take it on faith that AniMonday performs badly. I think it performs well for what SyFy wants out of it. Doesn't Manga actually pay them to air the block? SyFy certainly doesn't have anything else that they could air at that time that would be making them more money, or they would have aired it.

But, people need to stop saying that Adult Swim made the wrong choice in picking up Code Geass rather than Gurren Lagann. There is no evidence to suggest that Gurren Lagann gets better ratings than Code Geass. And even if there was, there could be other factors at play, for instance the day of the week and the amount of promotion. I mean, if Adult Swim did pick up Gurren Lagann, they would stick it on Saturdays with no promotion. I doubt it would do much better than Code Geass did.

 

[Vyse]

I wasn't implying you were dumb or naive and my Joe Casual example certainly wasn't there to represent you. I was discussing this with you with the assumption that you were an anime fan. Like me.

I think what I was trying to say is that our definitions of mainstream are different. GITS has been pounded into my brain so many times it's not even funny, and probably a lot when The Matrix was being promoted, as the creators cite GITS as a major influence; that was before I became a real fan. It's weird when I read a fellow fan claim that GITS is not mainstream. And, really, I want to continue this in another thread, gauging what other fans think is mainstream anime and how you define what anime is "mainstream".

On-topic, yeah, I remember reading/hearing that Manga/Starz pays SyFy to air Ani-Monday. It's the only way to explain why Manga commercials air during the scrunch-time credits, which would normally be for SyFy programming and the occasional NBC Universal cross-promotion.