Kevin Conroy's Legacy And The Future Of DC Animation

[Fone Bone]

I said yesterday I needed a night's sleep to get my head together to talk a bit about Kevin Conroy's death a little more in-depth. And I think I am ready now.

First off, I want to thank @James Harvey , for allowing Anime Superhero / Toon Zone to be a "Safe Space" for all of the people who loved Kevin to be able to grieve. It is incredibly important because so many of us don't have any other people in our lives who are feeling this level of loss and despair, and don't understand what we're going through, and how hard it is. One of the drawbacks of being a nerd is that people who aren't into these things don't really understand either our anger, or in this case sadness. And it is very important there was a place for people who loved Kevin Conroy to be able to express that to each other. If you ask me Twitter could not have picked a worse time to go off the rails. Thank God for this site and the moderators here.

For me, (and I can't speak for everyone), Kevin Conroy IS Batman, and while I loved his performances in Justice League Action and some of the DTV's, for me, Batman isn't from the comics, or the movies, or the Superfriends, or the later cartoons. He IS the DC Animated Universe version developed and beautifully written by Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, and later Dwayne McDuffie. Kevin's performance was not ALL of that (great performances are harder with bad material after all) but I think its enduring appeal means it was probably MOST of it. I always roll my eyes over Andrea Romano repeatedly telling the story of him entering the recording booth and her saying "He was Batman!". Romano's recounting of the hiring process sounds like every possible hoary cliche, and actually tells us nothing because we've heard a version of that story before for every other successful acting hire in history.

The REAL problem is that there was no other way for Romano to tell that story or to spice it up. Because the reality was Conroy WAS Batman, and there is no ambiguity about that, so maybe his voice acting superhero origin story deserves to be a bit well-worn and tired-seeming. If only because its reality is actually super obvious.

When I describe the DCAU Batman being the only Batman for me, it concerns me that I believe that statement is true. I also feel a little anger at some of the higher-ups at DC for stingily deciding to not cast Kevin as often as they could have when they could have. DC Animated Universe projects became few and far between, and outside of the Batman Beyond Anniversary Short, neither Batman And Harley Quinn (a bad movie) and Justice League Vs. The Fatal Five (a good movie) actually felt much like the kid-friendly and enjoyable DC Animated Universe. How long did the cast of JLU lob for a Justice League Reunion movie? And we'll never get it because DC sat on its hands. I feel like that with Kevin's death and the apparent death of the DC Animated Universe, that DC was taking him for granted for always being there, and saving him for "Special Occasions", without understanding or appreciating it was Kevin himself who made those projects special. It's not a sin to want to make as many DC projects as special and high-quality as possible. And I feel a bit angered that DC has spent the past fifteen years mostly denying us the Batman and the version of the DC character many people loved most for no damn good reason.

And yeah, the DC Animated Universe is dead now. Maybe in 20 or 30 years the continuity could be revived by a new creative team with an entirely new cast, but for 2022 and the immediate future? Kevin Conroy was the glue that held the entire franchise together. He was the one cast member who made an appearance in every single DCAU movie and TV show. It needs to rest for now with Kevin.

I think we all kind of took that for granted and expected Kevin would be Batman Forever (pun intended). He was so iconic in the role and so perfect, we might have ascribed an immortality to the man simply because the version of the character he played possessed that more than any other Batman. But he was a mortal man. An amazing and wonderful mortal man who brought joy to millions, who was a decent, giving, and generous person, and brought the quality of an entire franchise up to an unheard of level for his work. His work which was always excellent, and always seemed to me to be effortless. Conroy could play Batman as cool as he wanna be because Conroy was legit cool. The kind of cool a person cannot actually fake. If we believe Batman just said a badass thing, it's because Conroy was a total badass when he said it.

And DC Animation will be worse without the Timmverse version of the characters being something Warner Discovery can go back to when it seems appropriate. And Warner Discovery is having SUCH a hard time on the corporate level regarding films, TV shows, and animation currently, that the loss there is doubly hard and bitter.

And maybe me bringing all this up right now is bordering on selfishness and narcissism and me pounding my feet over not getting what I want. But I think for most people, when processing a death, particularly a painful one, personal regret ALWAYS plays a role. We always feel a bit angry and cheated that the amazing person left us when they did. It's human nature.

But if you read Kevin's life story (Roommates with Robin Williams! First gay Batman in history!) it's clear the world (and DC animation and its fans) didn't just lose an amazing talent. I would still be upset if that's all it was. But the world lost an amazing person who people genuinely valued and loved. And that's the part of the loss hitting me right now. As the months and years go on, and DC Animation grows worse for Kevin not being there, I'll be able to more fully absorb the reality of how important of a glue Kevin was to this whole thing. But for now, we just lost an amazing guy that we each connected to because for us he WAS Batman. And for me, there never will be another.

Rest In Peace, Kevin. You made the world a better place. There are few obituaries these days that can print that about a person and be true, but for Kevin Conroy, it was a fact. Bless you wherever you are, Kevin.

 

[Dusty]

thanks for sharing, I still am trying to reel myself in and accept Kevin is gone.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

First off, I want to thank @James Harvey , for allowing Anime Superhero / Toon Zone to be a "Safe Space" for all of the people who loved Kevin to be able to grieve. It is incredibly important because so many of us don't have any other people in our lives who are feeling this level of loss and despair, and don't understand what we're going through, and how hard it is. One of the drawbacks of being a nerd is that people who aren't into these things don't really understand either our anger, or in this case sadness. And it is very important there was a place for people who loved Kevin Conroy to be able to express that to each other. If you ask me Twitter could not have picked a worse time to go off the rails. Thank God for this site and the moderators here.

Agreed!

On Wednesday and Friday of last week I met with my computer repair guy. He said he could see the difference in my energy and attitude between the two days. I was in a daze for HOURS after reading about Kevin's death. Thankfully, my friend Jeff (his partner who owns the company) had given him a heads up that I was in a bad state because Kevin Conroy had passed away. Very considerate of him.

for me, Batman isn't from the comics, or the movies, or the Superfriends, or the later cartoons. He IS the DC Animated Universe version developed and beautifully written by Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, and later Dwayne McDuffie.

And Alan Burnett, and Martin Pasko, and Randy Rogel, and Tom Ruegger, and Stan Berkowtiz, and Bob Goodman, and Hilary Bader, and... You get the picture.

I always roll my eyes over Andrea Romano repeatedly telling the story of him entering the recording booth and her saying "He was Batman!". Romano's recounting of the hiring process sounds like every possible hoary cliche, and actually tells us nothing because we've heard a version of that story before for every other successful acting hire in history.

I think stories like that are clichés for a reason. Having directed a bit of community theatre, I can personally attest that sometimes you really do just instantly know who the right person for a role is. And since most everyone in fandom agrees that Kevin is absolutely utterly RIGHT for Batman, I have no trouble believing that Andrea and Bruce Timm recognized it on the spot.

I think one of the great unsung heroes of the DCAU is Andrea Romano's friend and former roommate Anthony Barneo. He was the fellow who suggested that Andrea audition Kevin Conroy for the role of Batman. He was also responsible for connecting Andrea to Jeffrey Combs.

I WISH I'd thought to get Anthony's information from Andrea so I could interview him about the pivotal part he played in Kevin getting the role, but unfortunately I didn't have the idea before he passed away in 2018. And Andrea says he never gave an interview about it. I bet he had great memories to share, but now they're just gone.

How long did the cast of JLU lob for a Justice League Reunion movie? And we'll never get it because DC sat on its hands.

Agreed. I suddenly realized this late Friday night, and this drives me NUTS. Over the last 10-15 years, Warners gave us pretty much everything EXCEPT a full fledged JLU reunion.

They gave us a film written by Dwayne McDuffie with most of the same voice cast but different character designs (DOOM), a film originally written by McDuffie as a movie lead-in to the JLU but redone with continuity & character changes, new voices, and new character designs (WORLDS COLLIDE / CRISIS ON TWO EARTHS), a film animated in the same style but featuring an new version of the Justice League (GODS AND MONSTERS), and finally a film that took place in the same continuity as the JLU, animated in the same style with the same voice cast, but one that DIDN'T use Phil LaMarr/Green Lantern, Michael Rosenbaum/The Flash, Maria Canals-Barrera/Hawkgirl, or Carl Lumbly/Martian Manhunter (JUSTICE LEAGUE VS. THE FATAL FIVE).

And now they'll never get another chance to bring everybody back together. I'd have MUCH rather had a JLU reunion than the Snyder Cut.

 

[Ed Nygma]

On just the subject of the future of the DCAU since I gave my thought on Kevin in the dedicated thread- there's a chance they already recorded lines for the Crisis movie and that'll be his final bow, either due to coincidence or perhaps knowing about his illness and trying to give him a send-off. If not they should cancel the thing as there's zero point in doing it without him (what animated versions would they possibly bring together that would charge people up other than 'oh yeah, there's the Brave and Bold Batman; and there's the New-52 verse, unless it's just one of the other 2010 movies). But there's a chance, he recorded Flashpoint in early 2012 and it came out a full 18 months later. They play these so close to the vest that we don't even know what's in production until they're ready for release.

As for DCAU, yeah its day has passed and I almost wish they had just left it alone since 2006. I don't want to speak too ill of Batman & Harley Quinn since Bruce is a guest here, but yeah... what a waste. It's infuriating we got that instead of one final BTAS movie that tied up all the loose plot threas or showed the post-ROTJ timeline. Good lord we went back to the well of that brief TNBA timeline for about 20 years. Fatal Five was frustrating because it wasn't intended to be a DCAU movie. Wish they had done Crisis on Two Earths and Doom with the old designs/voice cast and tied them in, but we were robbed of that since Jeph Loeb wanted Conroy and Daly to do the voices in the Batman/Superman movies, so they did that weird swerve with a cast that never returned and the Worlds Apart script only with no John Stewart. It is what it is though, I just was yearning very much for one last statement on the world that wasn't an inconsequential Harley joke story, we got too many of those, that delved into the final fate of Two Face or the near apocalypse of 2009 or Bruce Wayne's actual eventual death, etc.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

They play these so close to the vest that we don't even know what's in production until they're ready for release.

True. When I interviewed Bruce Timm in early 2017, it was shortly after Batman & Harley Quinn had been announced, but the public didn't know any details outside of the title. BT told me off the record that it was in the BTAS style, which made me REALLY excited. I couldn't break the story, though.

I tried to arrange another interview with BT about B&HQ when it was gearing up for release. I was told they were doing all their interviews for it at the San Diego Comic Con that summer, which I wasn't attending (I live in New Jersey). I tried again after the con, but I was told they were onto promoting the next project.

It's infuriating we got that instead of one final BTAS movie that tied up all the loose plot threas or showed the post-ROTJ timeline.

These are the types of stories hardcore fans want to see but which would largely confuse the general public and the more casual fan. Continuity gaps are usually better addressed in tie-in material like the comics.

What do you consider to be the "loose plot threads" of BTAS, anyway? I'm drawing a blank right now.

 

[Light Lucario]

As far as the DCAU goes, I don't know if I could have seen them do more with it even before news of Kevin Conroy's passing came out. Part of that is due to the messy state WB is currently in, but I also felt like the universe was pretty much done and has been done for quite some time. I've never seen Batman and Harley Quinn, although I haven't heard the best things about it over the years, but I feel like trying to squeeze in more movies or events prior to Joker kidnapping Tim Drake at this point would be kind of tricky. They have more wiggle room for telling stories set after that event, especially post Return of the Joker, but the fact that it's been so long since Batman Beyond without much new content always made me think that they weren't interested in going that direction.

I can completely understand why the cast would be asking for a JLU reunion movie for years. They had great chemistry together and from what I understand, they all really enjoyed their time on the series. Plus, it would be nice to know what happened to more of the Justice League members. Aside from Batman and Superman, we don't know how the other original members turned out by the time Batman Beyond started. Although, Wonder Woman did get a brief mention in the Static Shock crossover episode with Batman Beyond, so I guess we can assume she's alive in the future too. Batman Beyond in general getting more attention would be awesome, but like I said before, it just didn't seem like something WB had been interested in doing for ages.

It would be nice if they did manage to record something with Kevin Conroy, if only to give his version of the character a final sendoff and to pay tribute to Kevin Conroy himself, but I can't imagine them trying to do more with the universe now. Recasting this version of Batman is unthinkable and I doubt that the creative teams involved would want to do that anyway. Having a movie set after Bruce Wayne's passing would be interesting, if not incredibly depressing because of how that would only be due to Kevin Conroy's passing, but I don't see them giving that much attention to Batman Beyond. I suppose it wouldn't be impossible to tell stories in the DCAU without Batman in them, but there would feel like something was missing and given how Batman was such a huge building block for the DCAU, I think it would feel a bit too forced after awhile.

 

[-batmat-]

The fact that WB passed on a JL reunion film when the cast and every fan in the world was claiming for it, is unforgivable.

But I don't entirely disagree that maybe the DCAU was better off left alone after JLU ended.

It might be too much, but I would love for them to revisit Batman Beyond. Now that Kevin's gone, it would have to be set after Bruce's passing. A good opportunity to bring Dick Grayson back.

I don't think there's any really crucial plot threads that were left hanging were they? We can't find out what happened to EVERY character by the time of Batman Beyond. Near Apocolypse of 09? Yeah that sounds pretty neat but it was just a comment in passing. It's not like there's unanswered questions that prevent the DCAU storyline from making sense or anything. You finish watching the DCAU with a sense of fulfilment, not asking "What happened to Zuko's mom?!?!" haha.

 

[Yojimbo]

What do you consider to be the "loose plot threads" of BTAS, anyway? I'm drawing a blank right now.

Yeah, gonna have to think on that. Most things left open ended can be figured out by deduction. Like Ra's and Talia falling in the river at the end of their STAS episode. Well, they survived and the Near Apocalypse event happened. Or what happened to Freeze in "Cold Comfort"? Well, he escaped and at some point Batman caught him and his head was stored at WayneTech.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

but I feel like trying to squeeze in more movies or events prior to Joker kidnapping Tim Drake at this point would be kind of tricky.

Why would that be tricky? It's fiction. The characters don't age unless the creators want them to. Bruce Wayne was 30-35-ish when BTAS started in 1992, and he was still 30-35-ish when JLU ended in 2005.

And I seem to remember one creator saying that the Tim Drake flashback we see in ROTJ was a future point that the present day DCAU would never actually reach.

I don't think there's any really crucial plot threads that were left hanging were they? We can't find out what happened to EVERY character by the time of Batman Beyond.

Agreed. I maybe would want a little more of the GL/Vixen/Hawkgirl love triangle, but even stuff like that is the spice, not the main dish. And I understand the recent Justice League Infinity mini did stuff with that, anyway. (No Spoilers, please. I still haven't read the end of the series.)

Yeah, gonna have to think on that. Most things left open ended can be figured out by deduction. Like Ra's and Talia falling in the river at the end of their STAS episode. Well, they survived and the Near Apocalypse event happened. Or what happened to Freeze in "Cold Comfort"? Well, he escaped and at some point Batman caught him and his head was stored at WayneTech.

That stuff doesn't really bother me. Supervillains have apparent deaths they return from all the time. The Riddler is left catatonic at the end of "What Is Reality?", but he's fine and released on good behavior at the beginning of "Riddler's Reform." I think there was supposed to be an episode that explained how the Riddler regained consciousness, but it was axed for some reason.

 

[Light Lucario]

Why would that be tricky? It's fiction. The characters don't age unless the creators want them to. Bruce Wayne was 30-35-ish when BTAS started in 1992, and he was still 30-35-ish when JLU ended in 2005.

And I seem to remember one creator saying that the Tim Drake flashback we see in ROTJ was a future point that the present day DCAU would never actually reach.

It wasn't really about the characters aging that was the problem. Trying to fit in more storylines between the end of JLU and the Tim Drake flashback just feels more forced to me. There's only so much you can do with those characters because you already know where they ultimately end up due to Batman Beyond. That's why I said that they have more wiggle room with the far future of the DCAU since they have more of an open canvas to work with.

Although, the comment about the Tim Drake flashback being a future point that the present day DCAU would never actually reach does sound familiar to me. Maybe trying to fit in more events in the DCAU present wouldn't be as hard to pull off as I think it is, but like I said, I feel like the universe has been over for quite some time. It is a huge shame that we didn't get a proper JLU reunion movie when the cast wanted to do it though.

 

[Yojimbo]

And I seem to remember one creator saying that the Tim Drake flashback we see in ROTJ was a future point that the present day DCAU would never actually reach.

The late Mr. McDuffie did say something along those lines at his delphi forum 17 years ago on November 1, 2005. The user asked, "also at this point in JLU do you think The Joker pulled his 'final stunt' yet (kidnapping Tim Drake) or is he still alive and kicking?"And McDuffie replied, "It hasn't happened yet. I'd be surprised if our "present" ever caught up with Return of the Joker. I'm confident that the Joker will recover from his drubbing at Ace's hands and bedevil Batman many more times before the final battle."

But granted he said that before material like JL vs. Fatal Five or JL Infinity came out. It was bit tricky to fit it in but it was just an exercise in math, writing it down on paper, reading between the lines, and rationalizing and voila, I was able to make it work in my take on the timeline for example. JL vs. Fatal Five did bring "the present" ever so closer since in that movie, the new Arkham facility alluded to in ROTJ was featured.

That stuff doesn't really bother me. Supervillains have apparent deaths they return from all the time. The Riddler is left catatonic at the end of "What Is Reality?", but he's fine and released on good behavior at the beginning of "Riddler's Reform." I think there was supposed to be an episode that explained how the Riddler regained consciousness, but it was axed for some reason.

Yup. Exactly.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

It wasn't really about the characters aging that was the problem. Trying to fit in more storylines between the end of JLU and the Tim Drake flashback just feels more forced to me. There's only so much you can do with those characters because you already know where they ultimately end up due to Batman Beyond.

I still don't see any problem. It's not like there's a limited number of slots you can fit stories into before you have to say that ROTJ happened. "Okay, folks, only 20 more stories and THAT'S IT!!!" Again, it's fiction. You can tell as many--or as few--stories as you want, as long as there's an audience for them.

Do you know how many stories there are that take place during the original Five-Year Mission on Star Trek? It's got to be several hundred at this point, if not over a thousand. More than could ever reasonably conceivably take place during a five year span of time. And it's fine. People will STILL keep telling new stories of Captain Kirk and Mister Spock in that era, because none of them are real and are not bound by the rules of reality. You can fit an infinite number of angels on the head of that pin.

Most cartoons, like comic books, take place in an eternal present. The stories are happening NOW, whenever you read them. Really, how tough is it to just say "Return of the Joker hasn't happened yet"? Especially when it's as horrifying and depressing as what happens to Tim in ROTJ. I don't see any particular advantage to the Joker being "dead" in the present day of the DCAU, either.

The late Mr. McDuffie did say something along those lines at his delphi forum 17 years ago on November 1, 2005. The user asked, "also at this point in JLU do you think The Joker pulled his 'final stunt' yet (kidnapping Tim Drake) or is he still alive and kicking?"And McDuffie replied, "It hasn't happened yet. I'd be surprised if our "present" ever caught up with Return of the Joker. I'm confident that the Joker will recover from his drubbing at Ace's hands and bedevil Batman many more times before the final battle."

Yep, that's what I was thinking of! Thanks.

 

[jkoolpe]

"I always roll my eyes over Andrea Romano repeatedly telling the story of him entering the recording booth and her saying "He was Batman!". Romano's recounting of the hiring process sounds like every possible hoary cliche, and actually tells us nothing because we've heard a version of that story before for every other successful acting hire in history."

Certainly appreciate all of your thoughts during this sad, sad time, but I kind of disagree with the above statement.

To wit, I know and quite vividly still remember that when I first watched BTAS on the day it premiered, I knew immediately that this show was something very, very special and a game changer.

I can't even specify as to why or how I knew, the feeling was just there immediately. Everything about it (including of course Mr. Conroy's voice as Batman) was so, so perfect and how I always imagined Batman and his world should be rendered.

Kind of like when I first heard the Sgt. Pepper's Hearts Club Band album (not when it was originally released in this case, but as probably about a 9 or 10 year old in the mid-1970s playing it on my parent's stereo) or read the Watchmen comic when it was originally published.

Jon

 

[Ed Nygma]

What do you consider to be the "loose plot threads" of BTAS, anyway? I'm drawing a blank right now.

Connective tissue between the original shows and Beyond, or after the death of the Joker, or just what any of Batman's villains were to while not being seen on Justice League. I don't think it would confuse anyone to just have a final Ra's al Ghul story that happens to *be* the near apocalypse. The villains all got an attempt at closure in the original BTAS run so tying up things like Jon and Shyera would make sense.

Why would that be tricky? It's fiction. The characters don't age unless the creators want them to. Bruce Wayne was 30-35-ish when BTAS started in 1992, and he was still 30-35-ish when JLU ended in 2005.

And I seem to remember one creator saying that the Tim Drake flashback we see in ROTJ was a future point that the present day DCAU would never actually reach.

Agreed. I maybe would want a little more of the GL/Vixen/Hawkgirl love triangle, but even stuff like that is the spice, not the main dish. And I understand the recent Justice League Infinity mini did stuff with that, anyway. (No Spoilers, please. I still haven't read the end of the series.)

That stuff doesn't really bother me. Supervillains have apparent deaths they return from all the time. The Riddler is left catatonic at the end of "What Is Reality?", but he's fine and released on good behavior at the beginning of "Riddler's Reform." I think there was supposed to be an episode that explained how the Riddler regained consciousness, but it was axed for some reason.

I think we're saying that telling stories within the Tim Drake as Robin period that *could* be told after, but choose to stay in that narrow window of time, limits the possibilities, and takes away from the verisimilitude of passage of time. Tim has to be 14 at oldest when Joker zaps him, so it just seems... I don't know, silly to say the entirety of five years of Justice League stories AND TNBA AND new stuff they keep creating with Robin Tim, took place within a one or two year span. It's unnecessary because we have all those unseen years sitting on the table within the fixed timeline that includes Beyond. Needing to set it during TNBA yet again seems really more pointless to me than answering any plot threads. I wouldn't insist on references to Bruce mourning Tim either, it's the kind of thing old viewers could pick up on but newer ones wouldn't think twice about his darker attitude.

That relates to your other point about how I guess people just like different things in fiction- I don't like to be aware that I'm watching a sliding timeline cartoon, and they avoid a point or clever changes that are made out of necessity in live action. Within that framework, I enjoy the idea that Bruce was born in 1960 or so, aged in real time, and was 78 or so in 2039. It makes the short time we spend with these characters more precious (see again the point about not reusing Tim Robin) and gives a weight of time and loss to their actions. I'm super onboard with seeing conventional individual stories told within there, and changes that come incrementally.

It's just "fun" to think Bruce is 32 in BTAS and 45 in JLU, even if we don't see any direct references to aging. Conversely it's not fun for me when they had Tim Drake as Robin with a smartphone or drone in the Adventures Continue comic, because we already inferred the prior episodes were in a nebulous past, and this one insists nope, it's 2022 now, and wasn't 1999 in TNBA anymore either. I'm really not a stickler for continuity in animation, but I think they need to respect their own in-world logic that no matter what year it is in-show, the characters have aged appropriately into their destiny. They *told* us 2009 was a year in the universe of the show. Don't have to bring it up constantly, but it therefore is not also 2022 in TNBA. Otherwise the whole DCAU could have proceeded roughly chronologically since it was finite, and that's neat. Nobody complains either about how Harry Potter was at Hogwarts from 1991-1998, they get that setting without a sliding timeline makes it even more timeless, and special meaning for those who grew up alongside it, much like the DCAU.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Connective tissue between the original shows and Beyond, or after the death of the Joker...

Well, we already know what happens to Bruce, Tim, Barbara, the Joker, Harley, Bane, and Mr. Freeze. I think that's plenty. Sure, it might be nice if they told us what happened to Dick Grayson, but I'd only want to see that if they came up with a great story. I don't need to see Dick just to see him. Sometimes it's more intriguing to have a bit of mystery, anyway.

But I basically view BB as a hypothetical future that's not necessarily binding on present day DCAU continuity. YMMV.

...or just what any of Batman's villains were to while not being seen on Justice League.

In prison, in Arkham, dead, or at large hatching new schemes. In other words, pretty much the same thing every supervillain is doing when not being featured in a story.

The villains all got an attempt at closure in the original BTAS run...

Did they? I don't recall many attempts to finish off villains' stories, outside of "Harley's Holiday," which didn't stick anyway, because they made more episodes after that. What "attempts at closure" are you thinking of?

Tim has to be 14 at oldest when Joker zaps him

I think the ROTJ flashback is most successful/horrifying if Tim is as young as possible when the Joker brainwashes him, so I'd put him at 12 at the outside. I think my friends at the Watchtower Database have him significantly older, something like 18 or 19 at that point in their timeline, which doesn't work for me at all.

I enjoy the idea that Bruce was born in 1960 or so, aged in real time, and was 78 or so in 2039...

Most of the real time references in the DCAU come from projects that BT wasn't involved in, like the driver's license expiration date seen in Sub-Zero, the year references in The Zeta Project, or dates seen in the Batman Adventures comics by other hands. BT has said several times on here that he considers the DCAU to run on Peanuts time instead of real time. Therefore, Batman Beyond is always 40-50 years from now, whenever "now" is.

Having been reading comics since age 6 or so, I have no issue with sliding timelines. If it keeps the characters from becoming unmanageably old, I'm all for it.

Conversely it's not fun for me when they had Tim Drake as Robin with a smartphone or drone in the Adventures Continue comic, because we already inferred the prior episodes were in a nebulous past, and this one insists nope, it's 2022 now, and wasn't 1999 in TNBA anymore either.

I've got no problem with that sort of thing at all. Most comic book characters are like what Matthew McConaughey's character in Dazed & Confused says about high school girls: We get older, and they stay the same age.

They *told* us 2009 was a year in the universe of the show. Don't have to bring it up constantly, but it therefore is not also 2022 in TNBA.

Eh, the mention of "The Near Apocalypse of '09" was basically just a shorthand reference to "this future event that the characters know about but the viewers haven't seen." It was never meant as a promise of a story we were going to see someday. It's no different than the original Star Trek mentioning the Eugenics Wars of the 1990s. Those didn't come to pass in the real world either.

I like specific dates for certain fictional characters, like Sherlock Holmes (I've done a Sherlock Holmes timeline myself), but I don't need them for superheroes like Batman. There, I find the Zero Hour method of saying "X number of years ago" works fine.

 

[Ed Nygma]

Did they? I don't recall many attempts to finish off villains' stories, outside of "Harley's Holiday," which didn't stick anyway, because they made more episodes after that. What "attempts at closure" are you thinking of?

Most of the villains got a "send off" episode so to speak that tied up not necessarily their story but their relationship to Batman. Harley, Second Chance, Riddler's Reform, House and Garden, Catwalk, Showdown, they all semi-retire or at least conclude their conflict with Bats. Then WB renewed it yet again and the TNBA versions sort of spun their wheels.

I think the ROTJ flashback is most successful/horrifying if Tim is as young as possible when the Joker brainwashes him, so I'd put him at 12 at the outside. I think my friends at the Watchtower Database have him significantly older, something like 18 or 19 at that point in their timeline, which doesn't work for me at all.

Agreed. I don't agree with watchtower database at all on this one, and crazy as I myself sound I thought they sounded absolutely bat-guano insane making ramblings about how RotJ happened in 2007 when Tim was 19 or whatever. It seems like one of those things that was someone's head canon that they try to force to become a thing.

Most of the real time references in the DCAU come from projects that BT wasn't involved in, like the driver's license expiration date seen in Sub-Zero, the year references in The Zeta Project, or dates seen in the Batman Adventures comics by other hands. BT has said several times on here that he considers the DCAU to run on Peanuts time instead of real time. Therefore, Batman Beyond is always 40-50 years from now, whenever "now" is.

Having been reading comics since age 6 or so, I have no issue with sliding timelines. If it keeps the characters from becoming unmanageably old, I'm all for it.

I don't like tying it to a specific year either, but I do think they need to follow the internal logic they set out. Two examples: in Ren and Stimpy of all things, I don't think they need to explain what happened in the next episode if they blow up from the history eraser button. If Stimpy shaves Ren he can have his fur back the next day. But he needs to stay shaved in the rest of the skit/sequence that takes place moments after. Another one is Pokemon, which I haven't watched in 20 years since the early season, but I heard Ash Gottaketchemall finally became a world pokemon champion/master. I'm assuming that that event didn't take place 25 years later in his life, nor that it took place in the late 90s. But I would insist on it needing to take place at least a few solid years since the first episode, whatever that year may be, since they had thousands of adventures no human could ever live through even completely chronologically with no breaks.

And no disrespect to the man but I don't agree with Bruce Timm at all about the "Beyond is perpetually 50 years from now," since it used to be 40. I just don't buy or like Bruce being 29 forever in all the shows including Justice League, it ties too much into that Marvel idea that the characters always have to be young without the illusion of character progression. I also like the married Spider-Man because he just "seemed" like he was aging for about 45 years with no problem. They eventually have to reboot to a new version anyway in every medium outside Marvel comics, which DCAU did too.

 

[Yojimbo]

I think WDB adheres to Tim being 13 when he becomes Robin - I forget if that's from some defunct Kids WB! website bio or a comic or something. It really all depends on what you use for sources to define the canon. And well the irony is Mathew Valencia was 15/16 when he was voice recording. So that's why they think Tim was in his late teens in the ROTJ flashback. I think trying to include the Batman: The Adventures Continue comic gums up the math a bit, too, which I believe was one of the reasons it's AU to me. But I think it felt more along the lines of Tim bring around 8 or so when he starts (which I think makes more sense since it would loosely parallel Bruce's origins), then the ROTJ flashback taking place I would guess about 6 years later (after JLU, JLI comics, JL vs FF) when he's 13-14. Which I agree, makes it more horrifying than if he were older. I mean, it was still a disgusting and despicable act no matter what.

But ah, aren't we digressing a bit too much from the OT?

 

[-batmat-]

Are you suggesting Tim Drake is 8 years old in "Sins of the Father"?

 

[Yojimbo]

Are you suggesting Tim Drake is 8 years old in "Sins of the Father"?

Nope, I mean to type "9 or so." My opinion has changed a lot over the years so I kinda gave up on putting a number on Tim's age. If you want to twist my arm about it, I currently think he's 10 in TNBA and in the ROTJ flashback 15, shy of 16. If you adhere to the network bio, which is dubious imo because a marketing team probably cobbled that info together, then he's 13 in TNBA and a full fledged teen in the ROTJ flashback but eh, it depends how much time you put between TNBA and that event with respect to the events of JL/JLU/JL vs FF/JLI. That's not even going into the visuals of how he hardly looks any older in the flashback. Though I was curious how much time of a time skip if any there was in "Sins of the Father" between them stopping Two-Face and the training session at the end. Would really put Tim back in the field after a week or month of training? Idk. Although, in an interview from I forget when, Paul Dini has said his opinion was Harley was 28 in BTAS then 33 in the ROTJ flashback. I'd say Tim's age is definitely one of the infamous DCAU conundrums.

But again I'll say, are we digressing a bit too much from the OT? Am I being too subtle?

 

[Ed Nygma]

Nope, I mean to type "9 or so." My opinion has changed a lot over the years so I kinda gave up on putting a number on Tim's age. If you want to twist my arm about it, I currently think he's 10 in TNBA and in the ROTJ flashback 15, shy of 16. If you adhere to the network bio, which is dubious imo because a marketing team probably cobbled that info together, then he's 13 in TNBA and a full fledged teen in the ROTJ flashback but eh, it depends how much time you put between TNBA and that event with respect to the events of JL/JLU/JL vs FF/JLI. That's not even going into the visuals of how he hardly looks any older in the flashback. Though I was curious how much time of a time skip if any there was in "Sins of the Father" between them stopping Two-Face and the training session at the end. Would really put Tim back in the field after a week or month of training? Idk. Although, in an interview from I forget when, Paul Dini has said his opinion was Harley was 28 in BTAS then 33 in the ROTJ flashback. I'd say Tim's age is definitely one of the infamous DCAU conundrums.

But again I'll say, are we digressing a bit too much from the OT? Am I being too subtle?

We're all probably digressing, so I'll leave my opinion on the matter as basically this:




For what it's worth I guess I see Tim as 10 or 11 in Sins of the Father and 14-ish in RotJ flashback, and my head canon puts this in between JL and JLU, but only because I think there's only so many adventures you can realistically jam into a few years of time before it all becomes meaningless/Looney Tunes logic. But it's all just friendly discourse. For me what trumps continuity and years etc is the animation quality in terms of my enjoyment of a cartoon. But most people on here I gather don't really care if they're getting the worst Akom animation as long as it's accompanied by a good Dini script, so what do I know...