Round 37: More JLU

[Hero Supreme]

I would say "Wake the Dead" is the Ralph Nader of this poll, but it might actually take the lead.

if that were to happen, then it definitely wouldnt be "Naderesk." i am just hoping that my pick can actually win. it seldom does. maybe next week i will try out the butterfly ballot.

 

[Doomsday]

Dang this is a tough one, so many super episodes this time. Im torn between Doomsday Sanction and Task Force X. Going to go ahead and rewatch them to see if that help.

 

[DerekPowers]

I think you should break up "The Once and Future Thing" into two parts, like they were. Part One: Wierd Western Tales, and Part Two: Time, Warped.

If that were the case, i'd vote "The Once and Future Thing, Part 2: Time, Warped", because that was the best JLU episode to date, imo.

Combining them just seems strange, since they were such different episodes, and since part 1 at such a lower quality than part 2.

Plus, I doubt you'd count the 4-part cadmus finale as one episode. Sure, there was no "to be continued" at the ends, but they were just as related, if not more so, than TOAFT two parter. Actually, ALL of JLU is related to an extent, so really, i think they should be seperated. peace.

 

[Hero Supreme]

I think you should break up "The Once and Future Thing" into two parts, like they were. Part One: Wierd Western Tales, and Part Two: Time, Warped.

If that were the case, i'd vote "The Once and Future Thing, Part 2: Time, Warped", because that was the best JLU episode to date, imo.

Combining them just seems strange, since they were such different episodes, and since part 1 at such a lower quality than part 2.

Plus, I doubt you'd count the 4-part cadmus finale as one episode. Sure, there was no "to be continued" at the ends, but they were just as related, if not more so, than TOAFT two parter. Actually, ALL of JLU is related to an extent, so really, i think they should be seperated. peace.

anyone else want to chime in on this?

 

[Fone Bone]

anyone else want to chime in on this?

I agree that the Cadmus finale is way more related than Once and Future Thing 1 and 2. But I also think BOTH of them are multi-part episodes featuring the same story. Bruce Timm and Dwayne McDuffie have both called the Cadmus finale a four-parter. Both CF and OaFT have "previously on" openings like previous DCAU multi-parters rather than a teaser. If OaFT didn't have two different sub-headings and the Cadmus finale was titled as one long episode, this wouldn't even be a question. Despite the fact that JLU is pretty much a continuing story ALL six episodes have endings that were cliffhangers that were continued right off the bat the next episode right where they left off.

I don't buy the argument that ALL of JLU is interconnected as one long story either. Just because Doomsday Sanction, Task Force X, and Clash had endings that suggested that something big was coming in the future does not make them any more related than the end of The Demon's Quest makes it the first two-parts of a three-parter that concludes with Avatar just because it showed that Ra's would be back.

There is a difference between an ending that tells you that the story will be continuing in future episodes and a cliffhanger that lets you know the thing it sets up will be resolved right at the beginning of the next one. Saying that just because that's the way The West Wing or Lost works every episode also isn't a great argument in my mind simply because the DCAU has NEVER worked that way in the past and there is no reason to suppose it should be starting to now other than the idea of cliffhangers happening every episode is the current thing on TV.

 

[The Penguin]

anyone else want to chime in on this?

Well that was my thought, but it's probably a little late now, isn't it?

 

[Temple Fugate]

This is probably less contested than the Cadmus arc breakup because TOAFT, while cool and highly enjoyable, isn't as big a contender as WTD, DS, and TFX are. Would anybody here have voted for Part One or Part Two of TOAFT individually instead of the episodes you really voted for?

But for the record, yes, I would have preferred TOAFT be split up as well as the Cadmus arc.

 

[MilkManX]

Yes I am the lonley vote for Ties that Bind. I am a sucker for good action and Flash making me laugh.

 

[Arrakhat]

Wait, is Cadmus going to be counted seperately or as one episode? I never did see how that poll ended. If the four episodes in question had been given a single title to link the episodes, I could accept it. Since that's not the case, they do feel like different episodes.

I also refuse to accept Fone's arguement that Bruce Timm and Dwayne McDuffie called it a four parter as a reason it should be treated as such. They're probably just calling it that so they can refer to it in its entirity when talking about it. Imagine having to refer to those episodes and saying each seperate title each time. It seems like a conveniece more than anything else.

 

[Revelator]

While Cat and Canary is probably the most perfectly crafted of these episodes (I think it's the closest JLU has come to the lowscale feel of BTAS), my vote has to go to Doomsday Sanction, for packing more thrills into 22 minutes than any JL/JLU episode to date. In many ways, I thought it was even better than the four-part Cadmus finale, since DS leaves you in a state of excitement and anticipation, and contains more gasp-worthy moments. The pacing is terrific too--it never lets up. I especially liked the idea of intercutting the round-table pans of Cadmus and the Big 7 to suggest their similarities. And let's not forget that moment when a desparate Superman tried to lobotomize Doomsday. I actually gasped in shock when I saw that. One little moment can destabilize your entire grasp of a character. Lastly, this episode is perhaps the best since Twilight to deal with the eternal tension between Batman and Superman. Batman's enraged cry of "I took a bullet for you!" is one of the greatest bits of drama in Justice League. And the ending, with Bruce's grim face shadowed by the blinds as he watches Luthor on TV, was unsettling. Too bad Batman didn't have anything near as memorable a part in the finale, which in my mind was something of a let-down after the intimations of Doomsday Sanction. The ending of DS foreshadows an ethical crisis with Batman that never occurred. Perhaps I wouldn't be so hesitant to have given up the Brainthor nonsense in return for an Outsiders story. Anyway, Batman later got his due in Epilogue, though I remain in the minority in thinking that episode had no good reason to exist.

 

[Link]

I think you should break up "The Once and Future Thing" into two parts, like they were. Part One: Wierd Western Tales, and Part Two: Time, Warped.

If that were the case, i'd vote "The Once and Future Thing, Part 2: Time, Warped", because that was the best JLU episode to date, imo.

Combining them just seems strange, since they were such different episodes, and since part 1 at such a lower quality than part 2.

Plus, I doubt you'd count the 4-part cadmus finale as one episode. Sure, there was no "to be continued" at the ends, but they were just as related, if not more so, than TOAFT two parter. Actually, ALL of JLU is related to an extent, so really, i think they should be seperated. peace.

I agree, but for the excact oppositte of the reason you said that. I think they should be split up because Part Two had alot lower quality than Part One. Plus, it does give each episode separate titles, and they are entirely different plots other than Part One being in the future for a few minutes at the end. They just seem alot more like separate episodes whereas the JL two-parters seem alot like the same episodes.

Would anybody here have voted for Part One or Part Two of TOAFT individually instead of the episodes you really voted for?

Yes, actually. The only reason I didn't vote for OaFT was because it was stuck with Part Two and I love Part One but dislike Part Two.

 

[Doomsday]

After rewatching "Doomsday Sanction" and "Task Force X", it was hard to pick from the 2, both with amazing endings, I have to go with DS. Plus how can someone with the name Doomsday not vote for the episode with his name in it.

 

[Hero Supreme]

Wait, is Cadmus going to be counted seperately or as one episode? I never did see how that poll ended. If the four episodes in question had been given a single title to link the episodes, I could accept it. Since that's not the case, they do feel like different episodes.

I also refuse to accept Fone's arguement that Bruce Timm and Dwayne McDuffie called it a four parter as a reason it should be treated as such. They're probably just calling it that so they can refer to it in its entirity when talking about it. Imagine having to refer to those episodes and saying each seperate title each time. It seems like a conveniece more than anything else.

the poll actually voted for the cadmus arc to be separated. but it seems like either way, about half the people are going to be disappointed.

as for tOaFT, it is most definately a two parter. it has all the elements. and since all along, the 2 parters have been combined, this one was too. and i really dont think that spliting the episode would affect this particular rounds outcome anyways.

 

[The Penguin]

as for tOaFT, it is most definately a two parter. it has all the elements. and since all along, the 2 parters have been combined, this one was too. and i really dont think that spliting the episode would affect this particular rounds outcome anyways.

I still say that's different because the JL format was all multi-part episode or movies and JLU is usually a half-hour, but you're the poll guy.

 

[Christopher Glennon]

I came VERY close to voting for "Once And Future Thing". Part one was fun, but I really liked part two. Call me a sucker for Batman Beyond, call me a sucker for Hal Jordan.

My vote went to "Doomsday Sanction", though. It just seemed to get everything right (OAFT, especially when compared to the more powerful "Epilogue", is somewhat lacking in comparison). Gotta go for something that gives us great Superman and Batman moments and really questions the League's role in everything.

Aw, poor "Ultimatum"...

 

[Fone Bone]

2824.194 in reply to 2824.193
Just to make things even MORE confusing for the polls I asked Dwayne McDuffie this question on his forum and got this reply:

"1. Is Question Authority/Flashpoint/Panic in the Sky/ Divided We Fall a multi-part episode in the same way Starcrossed was or do you consider it four seperate episodes? If it IS a multi-parter why did you guys choose to give each part a different name?"

The whole season was a multi-part episode, with two or three exceptions.

Well, I was right, but even more so than I thought! I don't know what this means for the polls but it's obvious that Mr. McDuffie feels the structure of the Cadmus Arc is similar to Starcrossed and the other multi-part episodes.

I like how he didn't bother telling me what the two or three exceptions were.

 

[Christopher Glennon]

I like how he didn't bother telling me what the two or three exceptions were.

If he's referring to every episode after "The Once And Future King" up through "Epilogue", I'd assume the exceptions are "The Cat and the Canary", "The Ties That Bind" and "Hunter's Moon" since those are the only ones that don't have a direct tie to anyone involved in Cadmus (I would've thrown in "The Balance", but the beginning had Cadmus stuff).

I guess what Dwayne McDuffie meant was you can't really put JLU season 2/4 in the same category as a typical season for the DCAU. It was very arc-minded, something that BTAS never was, and much more so than STAS. JLU is all about doing everything possible, so it makes sense that they give us something we haven't seen before in terms of season arcs.

OT: He really knows nothing about tying the JLU and Teen Titans together? Hm...

 

[Hero Supreme]

2824.194 in reply to 2824.193
Just to make things even MORE confusing for the polls I asked Dwayne McDuffie this question on his forum and got this reply:



Well, I was right, but even more so than I thought! I don't know what this means for the polls but it's obvious that Mr. McDuffie feels the structure of the Cadmus Arc is similar to Starcrossed and the other multi-part episodes.

I like how he didn't bother telling me what the two or three exceptions were.

ahh crap!

 

[Fone Bone]

If he's referring to every episode after "The Once And Future King" up through "Epilogue", I'd assume the exceptions are "The Cat and the Canary", "The Ties That Bind" and "Hunter's Moon" since those are the only ones that don't have a direct tie to anyone involved in Cadmus (I would've thrown in "The Balance", but the beginning had Cadmus stuff).

Probably. I couldn't resist being a little snarky in my reply to him and I fully expect him to justifyably tear me a new one.

I guess what Dwayne McDuffie meant was you can't really put JLU season 2/4 in the same category as a typical season for the DCAU. It was very arc-minded, something that BTAS never was, and much more so than STAS. JLU is all about doing everything possible, so it makes sense that they give us something we haven't seen before in terms of season arcs.

This makes sense but it sure makes the polls harder. I think if it really IS the case that the entire season with a couple of exceptions is a multi-parter then I can finally get around to excepting the Cadmus four part finale as four seperate choices. WAAAAAY different than anything done in the DCAU thus far, however.

OT: He really knows nothing about tying the JLU and Teen Titans together? Hm...

I'm thinking coyness may be involved. Why else would b.t. have given us a hint about a possible crossover of sorts?

 

[Link]

I'm confused. I thought the choice for four separate choices won. I don't think it would be right to change that, just by what McDuffie said and considering that if you go by that the entire options for this season would just be Cadmus Arc, Cat and Canary, Ties That Bind and Hunter's Moon which is impossible since we already have Doomsday Sanction and Task Force on this poll. I say just stick with the way the ballot won, unless you want to count the whole week we voted in that useless.