Toonami Ratings

[MDawg]

I'm not surprised they would shout nonsense like "ratings don't matter" because that is at the crux of the debate

The thing is, unless you're a nielson household, ratings do not matter. There's nothing you can say that will improve them if you don't have that stupid little box or viewing diary. Yes, they will be taking social media into account come fall, but it still does'nt matter as much as that one household that counts as thousands of viewers. In that sense, they don't matter one lick to them.

Have you thought about maybe taking a break from this topic? You get way too worked up over this mess for what isn't a big deal.

 

[HG Revolution]

I don't think people are stupid for disagreeing with me on FG at 2:30a in a Toonami block. It's clear from posts here that there are enough who see Toonami as a cult that is governed by a strong traditional sense. But I do think they are wastes of space when all they have to offer is name calling. That's not going to stop someone from vigorously defending their pov. That's only going to shift the tone in which they do it.

---

I'm not surprised they would shout nonsense like "ratings don't matter" because that is at the crux of the debate. If ratings don't matter, then Toonami should focus more on drama for it's animated action because that's not only it's traditional sense but also ASAs. If ratings don't matter & Funimation is offering freebies like E7 than I would rather see more past anime from the industry's glory years than failed CN shows. But ratings do matter as they are the very lifeblood of the tv industry. So that's why DeMarco tapped CN nostalgia value as well as anime nostalgia value to fill out the lineup. Soul Eater is the most recent show on the block & it's not all that recent in terms of it's anime prod date.

FUNimation didn't offer them E7; they grabbed it from Bandai before Bandai stopped operating entirely.

I think what Jeff's saying is that ratings do matter to networks since the networks have the full context. But what we get in abstract numbers without that context, that doesn't really matter.

 

[Paradox295]

I work for an entertainment site and YES they do matter.

You do? I'm interested now. I doubt the credibility of a website that hires someone who makes baseless YouTube rants in his spare time.

The ratings don't only matter to people like in those parts of the industry.

Yes they do. You just made a claim without backing it up with evidence. Try again.

Also, I just wanted to state if dbz every came back to Toonami it would be a HUGE ratings hit for them

No it wouldn't. Not only didn't you not back that claim up, it's impossible to prove. Try again.

because of the following it continues to have here in the states.

It does? I doubt it has much of a "following" outside the standard "remember the 90's?!" crowd in the same way Rocko's Modern Life has a "following".

I'm not even going to argue because you have no clue what you're talking about. Have a good day.

Yep, sure. Jeff Harris, founder of The X Bridge and probably the most knowledgeable person in not only the Toonami fandom, but the whole animation fandom doesn't know what he's talking about, and FutureGohanSSJ2/Snowballx/James/whatever name you're deciding to go by, the animation fandom's biggest contrarian does.

No, your dismissal of a whole well thought out paragraph of text with "lol, I don't want to argue with ppl smarter than me, you don't know what you're talking about, I win lololol" is a perfectly logical discussion tactic.

I'm not criticizing you, and you're perfectly allowed your own opinions, but you'd have a much better time if you used logic to back up your arguments, rather than using arguments to back up your logic.

 

[GWOtaku]

Jeff is 100% right. All I have to add is that DeMarco's on record that there is general satisfaction with the ratings performance of the block, so this truly has been a debate over something both out of our control and over a problem that doesn't exist.

And there is no episode of Family Guy that counts as an action episode. Not one. Not even Lois Kills Stewie.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

I know people who have worked in marketing at Turner for over 10 yrs. Why should that matter? Someone writes something & others apply their knowledge & common sense to what meaning it holds for them. If they base that opinion on whether the thoughts are expressed from an engineer that has worked for tv stations in the past vs a network exec they are weak minded individuals. Attacking someone's credentials because you lack the skills & talent to debate their points is both cowardly & brutish. Only simpeltons would think they gain something from it. It's the very behavior CN is continuing to campaign against in their stop "bullying" efforts. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

---

I'm more rooted in science & engineering so naturally data speaks more to me than any thing a person is going to say. So when someone attacks the fact that "ratings are the lifeblood of the tv industry" by ignoring the changes of the system over the last 5-10 yrs & failing to understand it's a confidence game & no one that matters is doubting the source any more, they don't know what they are talking about.

 

[Sketch]

I think a lot of people are really trying to say that the ratings we see are not the whole story. Not even half of it.

For instance recently we were only seeing that Toonami was pulling in less total viewers in the first two hours than ASA the last time it had 3 premieres. When we saw the 18-49 indicated a growth in the key demographics we had a whole different perspective on things. Until we can get every single rating in every single demographic what we see for total viewers week to week is not a large enough part of the puzzle to suggest major changes should be done to increase the total viewership.

The Toonami staff says they're happy with the ratings the Toonami PR shows gains with the key demographics.

And if you just want to compare the total viewers to other networks, Adult Swim is already doing great for total day ratings and the inclusion of Family Guy in Toonami would not really change their position by itself even if it improved the LLN ratings on Saturday by 100-200,000. They rest of the week more than makes up for the lower ratings on Saturday. Do I need to remind you there was a week when Sym-Bionic Titan beat a LLN airing of Family Guy on Sunday?

Adding Family Guy to 2:30AM on Saturday would not make enough of a difference and the Toonami crew will never do it. They'd close up shop before willingly adding Family Guy even if it got them 11:30 or the whole 11 hour in the process.

 

[Ishtar]

What Jeff is trying to come across is that the ratings don't matter for us. Of course they still matter to Toonami and Adult Swim, but all we get are numbers. We can only do simple guess work, but not understand everything as a whole. As I said before, DeMarco has explained that TV ratings cannot be analyzed in the same exact way as box office numbers and that they are only part of the big picture. There are various other factors for the network to consider: the cost of the show, the network's expectations, the timeslot, merchandise sales (if its a network original), social media presence, etc. Long story short, networks don't solely look at ratings to determine the fate of a show. It's more complicated than that. And again, do you REALLY think Adult Swim gives too much of a crap how their late night Saturday lineup does? They seem perfectly a-ok with these ratings, and Toonami has emphasized several times that they are doing fine. They wouldn't have gotten the recent budget increase for TOM 5 and One Piece if Toonami was performing below their expectations. ASA had much worse ratings during that same time period several times in the past, and they didn't seem like that big of a deal. Once again, Saturday night is basically their throw away night to cater to more of a niche audience as a result of being the weakest night for television as a whole.

RIF, you're over estimating how big of an impact ADHD will even have, and there's one important factor I've failed to see factored. Generally, Cable channels don't concern themselves with how Broadcast TV does. Adult Swim's focused competition are other Cable channels, particularly those targeting the same demo. You mentioned Disney, when Disney doesn't even target the same viewers. You're talking male adults vs kids, which does not matter whatsoever. Getting back to ADHD, even if AS was concerned about it we have NO IDEA how it will initially perform. It could easily be a huge bomb for FOX, especially when they announced the lineup would entirely consist of six 15 min long originals. That seems to imply that they won't be airing Family Guy or any of their regular Animation Domination heavy hitters in the block. You don't just make a huge scheduling gamble with Toonami when you don't even know how ADHD will factor in.

 

[Sunnydee]

It's just that Family Guy and Toonami may not share an audience, so if you put Family Guy in the middle of Toonami as a tentpole, it probably won't work because while that particular episode of Family Guy may do well, the ratings will dissipate rather quickly because that particular audience doesn't care to see any of Toonami's shows. They'll change the channel. So you get to a point where Family Guy does amazing compared to the rest of these shows because there is no overlap in audience. The Toonami crowd may love Family Guy, but there's a reason Fox has decided to show animated sitcoms around Family Guy's airings on Animation Domination: so the same audience can watch a similar show.

However, if you are looking for higher ratings, you might as well just have 6 straight hours of Family Guy. I think what adult swim is trying to do is trying to build a strong brand that can do well for them over time and draws / creates an audience they might not have had before. I think what Rabid Inuyasha Fan is trying to do is get ratings in the short run, which may be a little short sighted. I don't think you can undermine a brand like that, you have to commit by throwing up as many action shows as you possibly can, not by tricking an audience with comedy disguised as action. Not that there's anything wrong with comedy, it's just not part of this specific brand.

It'd be similar to TBS saying: we're all about comedy, but boy does that NCIS show look popular...And then going after that. They have to stay committed to the brand.

Also, while I'm here, I'll add my name to the growing list of people that agree with Jeff. He's right, we hardly have any information from the numbers we get. There are tons of other people who have to study a more complete set of numbers. These are incomplete. Not only that, but we have no influence over them, unless you're in a nielsen home

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

I'm not over-estimating anything. Unlike SNL, adhd will feature a digital simulcast. You won't need to be home to watch it. That's naturally going to lead to trending on twitter if it's well received. It doesn't matter that it's on FOX because it's an animated block. That's direct competition for [as]. Stil, [as] shouldn't take pre-emptive action because it's start time will flex based on it's sports lead. That's an opportunity for [as] to learn what does best. Original comedy will take on Axe Cop in Aug, & Bleach will take it on from Sep-Dec. On nights when the college game is extended, even Naruto or OP could wind up taking on the lead. [as] will have little doubt as to what does better against it by Dec.

---

Jeff is wrong because his knowledge of Nielsen is antiquated. They now have nearly 24k HH's & that grows to over 2.5m during sweeps. Nielsen solidified their monopoly when they decided to start collecting data from outside sources such as cable/dish/etc & that extends into NetRatings. As the shift continues from live to delayed & tv to mobile there is less reliance on their own HH's in determining their ratings. Their methods as to how they make use of all that data are proprietary but the impact is not. Their competitors have all but thrown in the towel when it comes to TV ratings & instead are focusing on radio & mobile/net. Furthermore, they resolve disputes with networks & advertisers at a much quicker rate now than in yrs past. As I've said repeatedly, it's a confidence game & Nielsen has solidified their monopoly in that. So it's wrong to say non Nielsen HH don't count any more. It's accurate to say the Nielsen HH's matter a lot more than the rest.

---

SD, I'm glad you brought up TBS because it illustrates my point. TBS uses movies to expand beyond their comedy theme. That's the smart move because films like I Am Legend are more likely to draw unique viewers to the network. They then expose them to promo's for their comedies & hope some of them check out TBS more. FG at 2:30a on Sat would have a similar effect. It exposes the Toonami shows through promo's to more unique viewers. Andrew, whenever you say never it usually comes back to haunt you.

 

[Nobodyman]

Okay, One Piece never aired on The WB/The CW, just Fox. It had high ratings each and every week it was on, number 2 behind TMNT every week if memory recalls. One Piece didn't "fail" on Cartoon Network because kids didn't connect to it. It failed because they were repeats of a poorly-edited version of a series that aired months ago and kids were watching the usual live-action pablum on Nickelodeon on Saturday nights. It also failed because it was only on once a week, which didn't help at all. Naruto did better because, unlike One Piece, it was actually new episodes. This is not conjecture. These are facts.

Just curious, how would you account for One Piece's contiued low ratings, even after they got to new material and ended the 4kids dub/edits? Was it just too little too late?

 

[Ishtar]

Just curious, how would you account for One Piece's contiued low ratings, even after they got to new material and ended the 4kids dub/edits? Was it just too little too late?

None of us can say for sure, because ratings data for the Season 3 era of One Piece was never posted online.

The 4Kids episodes actually did well on Toonami, hence why over 100 episodes of it ended up airing there. In a press release, it was shown to come second place to Naruto in the block back in 2005.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

While he might be right in that it was still called the FOX Box, that's a moot point because it still represented syndication. You know someone is fishing for a basis when in the same post he writes it didn't fail in the ratings but it failed because of poor quality. He's contradicting himself. The clearest sign of a show failing in syndication is the length of it's run. Let's see what he has to say about that.

---

Those defending him are also wrong in suggesting that commercial ratings (which most of us aren't privy to) are all that matter. While it's true that $ changes hands on C3 (Commercial Live+3D) ratings these days, those ratings do not have the greatest ramifications for the industry. It's the program ratings we are privy to that do. That's what producers look at the most & they comb through fragments of the show to determine what works & what doesn't. That has great impact on the next season. Sponsors look at both the L3 & C3 because the gap helps assess the effectiveness of the ad. Networks do the same to better improve the format of the break space. In addition they rely on market research groups & panels in their decision making. So all ratings matter.

---

Ish, the wiki contradicts what you are saying. You'll have to provide a source attesting to OP succeeding in kids demogs. Wiki: 4Kids realized One Piece would not work with their intended demographic, tried to edit it down, & dropped it in Dec 2006. CN aired the Funi ep for a period of 6 mo before dropping it in 2008.

 

[Jeff Harris]

I work for an entertainment site and YES they do matter. The ratings don't only matter to people like in those parts of the industry. Also, I just wanted to state if dbz every came back to Toonami it would be a HUGE ratings hit for them because of the following it continues to have here in the states. I'm not even going to argue because you have no clue what you're talking about. Have a good day.

Okay, that was a lot of nothing to process, so I'm going to have to deal with this one line at a time.

"I work for an entertainment site and YES they do matter."

Going to have to use the Harvard comma on that sentence, and I'm going to parse out what you were trying to say in that line:

"I work for an entertainment site, and YES, ratings do matter."

Otherwise, I read that as you work for an entertainment site that you insists matters.

I'll save the credentials for the end and continue with your next . . . point?

"The ratings don't only matter to people like in those parts of the industry.".

Yes, Nielsen ratings do matter, but only to those who rely on the false, broken inaccurate numbers to educate advertisers who's watching what at what time and networks to know what shows will attract the most advertisers. Disney Channel, which has no advertisers, use ratings to convince cable operators to keep the channel in high profile slots. These are the people the ratings do matter. And, again, if you're not either of those nor an actual Nielsen household (and for the record, between 1995 and 1997, I was a member of an actual Nielsen household with the meter and diaries), the ratings don't matter to you, so stop dwelling on them.

Truth be told, most networks only release the Live ratings. That's just one number. There are actually three numbers that get released. There's the Live ratings (the original, classic old-school ratings everybody seem to be used to), the Live +3 ratings (the original ratings PLUS the following three days of video playback from DVR devices), and the Live +7 ratings (the original ratings plus a whole week of DVR playback). Only the Live ratings are generally publicized mostly because this is the one relevant to advertisers who want to know who's actually watching the show as the show airs and not zooming past the commercials. So, lots more people are actually watching these shows, but most people will never know that because only one set of numbers (the ones the advertisers rely on) is actually released per week.

This is not conjecture. These are facts.

I'll continue:

"Also, I just wanted to state if dbz every came back to Toonami it would be a HUGE ratings hit for them because of the following it continues to have here in the states."

You know, for someone who works at an entertainment company, you don't know much about capitalization and punctuation.

There's no way to say that if 15-year old repeats of Dragon Ball Z came on every week that it'd be a HUGE ratings hit. The much younger Naruto musters up a bit over a million viewers a week, not all that much of a drop from Bleach and not that much more than the newest show on the series, Soul Eater. One Piece will also have over a million viewers as well when it premieres next month. If you've convinced yourself that Dragon Ball Z will have 1999 and 2000-level numbers in 2013, you're delusional. The show has aged tremendously and not like wine. Even the Kai transfer may look shinier, it's still dated. The show WAS made in the late 80s and early 90s. Many of the fans who grew up with Dragon Ball Z actually grew up, moving on to bigger, better shows while keeping the original show in their hearts (and on their shelves). The generation that wants the older DBZ episodes on the newer Toonami reminds me a bit of my generation that enjoyed seeing the original ThunderCats, Voltron, and Robotech on the original Toonami. We knew when it was time to let the block evolve and bring newer shows to the masses.

But if you think that DBZ will get five to seven million viewers at 1 or 2 AM on a Sunday morning, you're tilting at windmills and lost in a world that doesn't exist.

In closing, you wrote this gem, essentially closing yourself off of anything of substance and, more or less, giving up an actual conversation and declaring victory against a person who didn't even know of nor acknowledged that a battle was about to happen:

" I'm not even going to argue because you have no clue what you're talking about. Have a good day."

By actually copying my whole dialogue in full, you kind of did argue with me but really didn't have anything to say nor respected me enough to actually give a response.

Hell, you didn't even respect me enough to give me your real name since you're hiding behind a screen name that conjures up all sorts of things including a fun weather activity to a furry white cat to sexual act I don't want to discuss in a PG-13 forum as this one, but I digress.

As for that crack that I have no clue what I'm talking about, well, aside from the knowledge I dropped on you just then, let me tell you about myself.

You say you work for an entertainment site? I created an entertainment site and consider myself part of the one of the best animation news and information sites online, Toonzone. I think you've heard of it. I've been working and creating on my site longer than you've been alive. I've built up several brands online and developing others even as we speak as well as worked on other sites in the nearly 18 years I've been online. Did I mention that I was a major part of the first generation of Toonami webpages, and nearly every aspect of the Toonami faithful that exists was created either because of our collective efforts or inspired by the foundation that we started over 15 years ago? My works, analysis, and articles have been lauded and respected throughout all corners of the animation fandom, from fans to scholars to producers.

And yes, I was instrumental in the creation of a cable network in the United Kingdom.

So to discount what I have to say because you don't agree with it is not only insulting to me, but it's also insulting to you because as a certain yellow bird once said, you don't know me very well, do you?

Look, I'm not looking to start a fight, and I'm not really looking to continue this discussion any further than we already have, but if you feel the need to want to rebut what I said, fine. Go for it, dude! Just be sure you bring facts with you to back you up and not just a lot of hollow conjecture that's wide enough to put a Mack truck through.

Until then, be seeing you.

 

[Sketch]

As I recall One Piece had pretty bad ratings on the FOXBOX/4KidsTV and they got even worse. By the second year on the 4KidsTV, the show was pushed toward the end of the morning before leaving the block entirely. One Piece was a failure for that block.

However the ratings were good on Cartoon Network within Toonami on Saturday nights where it ended up airing the other half of the episodes 4KidsTV never did. It was matching well with Naruto in November of 2005. They likely took a hit when the show ran out of fresh episodes to air but considering it had an hour of Toonami's block for most of it's run including when it was in reruns, I'd figure it was doing pretty well for itself. When it returned from reruns to finish what 4Kids had dubbed it got plenty of promotion which again indicates some level of success. According to FUNimation reps which I talked to at an anime convention, the FUNimation episodes that started airing in Fall of 2007 increased the ratings over the 4Kids episodes which previously aired and it was said in Fall of 2007 that One Piece was one of the highest rated shows on Cartoon Network with 9-14 along with Naruto, Bo-Bobo and Goosebumps.

It would seem to me Cartoon Network merely changed their minds regarding what was "good enough" some time in 2008 and both One Piece and DBZ were abruptly removed from the line-up. There may have been some falling out with FUNimation around that time as well because around that time Shin Chan got pulled as well.

I'm pretty sure I've told you all of that One Piece ratings information before RIF and gave you the links and I really don't want to track them all down again but they are probably in this thread somewhere.

Here's the press release for November 2005 at least

http://www.toonamiinfolink.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=975

 

[Jeff Harris]

IJeff is wrong because his knowledge of Nielsen is antiquated. They now have nearly 24k HH's & that grows to over 2.5m during sweeps. Nielsen solidified their monopoly when they decided to start collecting data from outside sources such as cable/dish/etc & that extends into NetRatings. As the shift continues from live to delayed & tv to mobile there is less reliance on their own HH's in determining their ratings. Their methods as to how they make use of all that data are proprietary but the impact is not. Their competitors have all but thrown in the towel when it comes to TV ratings & instead are focusing on radio & mobile/net. Furthermore, they resolve disputes with networks & advertisers at a much quicker rate now than in yrs past. As I've said repeatedly, it's a confidence game & Nielsen has solidified their monopoly in that. So it's wrong to say non Nielsen HH don't count any more. It's accurate to say the Nielsen HH's matter a lot more than the rest.

You do realize that you're pretty much saying that the Nielsen people are just making up stuff now, right? You've admitted that in times that are sweeps months, you're saying that each Nielsen household represents 2.5 million viewers as opposed to the 50 - 60,000 viewers every other month of the year?

That alone makes me question the validity of the Nielsen ratings system as a whole if that's true. Also, NetRatings don't count for the Live ratings that are commonly released publicly. That's, more or less, measuring how much you're using the internet, who's using it at any giving moment of the day, and what they're looking at when they do log on. I should know because I've been metered through them for over six months now. In that regards, I AM a Nielsen household.

Oh, and how is "and yet 25 - 30,000 households (are you that lazy you don't want to spell out households?), less than .02% of the total TV landscape" any different than your "they now have nearly 24K HH's?" They don't have 2.5 million meters. Just 25 - 30,000, which is variable every ten years.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

Andrew, thanks for the #'s because it gives us an idea of what to expect for Toonami. OP lost 13% of Naruto's T9-14 & 15% of mT9-14. It performed better in K6-11, but we are looking at just one wk vs a ratings avg. That doesn't really dispute the fact that 3 mo's later CN yanked it.

---

For those who understand that a sci-fi action opener is direct competition vs Toonami, Oblivion surprised on Fri. With $13.3m, it trailed GI Joe 2 by 14% but that was aided by the Good Fri holiday. There will be greater pent up demand for Oblivion on Sat & it should do over $15m. Toonami's #'s will dip from last weekend but should do better than Mar 30 or Apr 6 because GI Joe 2 had stronger holdovers.

---

Jeff, if you want a % breakdown of the American people you take the 288m tv's they estimate & you divide it by the 25-30k metered HH during non sweeps months & the 2.5m covered HH during sweeps months. It's still far greater representation than polling data which news organizations swear by. The statistical methods hold as long as you have a diverse enough representation in your sample. That's how they arrive at national polls from a sample of just 1K's. I abbrev all the time so just get used to it if you bother to converse with me. You should know that NetRatings now include digital simulcasts which include the syncs that are popping up on cable now.

 

[Sketch]

That link showed the November average in 2005. One Piece was on the air for over 2 more years after that November.

And comparing how 4Kids One Piece did with kids to how FUNimation's uncut dub could do with adults and total viewers probably wont answer many questions.

 

[Soul]

I'd like to comment on the whole "ratings don't matter thing."
I'd say Jeff is half right, especially in Toonami's case. This goes back to [adult swim] Action, upon which HAS ALWAYS had the lowest ratings on the network. As such Lazzo and AS as repeated, air anime because they like it and want to.

If they ever aired comedy later in the night on Saturdays, they'd remove anime altogether then. So do ratings matter to Toonami? Yes and no. No to the extent that they'll never complete remove anime from Saturdays, and yes to extent of gauging what else to air on the block.

Lazzo, Manning as well as Jason and crew found out there was a way to keep anime on AS and increase its ratings after 4/1/12: Toonami.

Given an actual reason to watch people will tune in and AS's once meager cash toss to anime programing has since tripled and viewer ship has continued to increase in the KEY demographics for AS.

 

[Soul]

Also, this is of course [adult swim] we're talking about, a network that does things so radical and ridiculous to normal television standards, bringing back Toonami and continuing to air anime after all these years was just the culmination.

End point, ratings like I said will matter...and not matter. They'll ,matter to the point of what higher costing show they'll license to bring in even more ratings and they'll not matter...because they'll ALWAYS air anime.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

I realize this will weaken my argument for FG @ 2:30a but I want to clear something up. Toonami & ASA were/are not just pet projects. They are justifiable pet projects. Original comedy expansion has been tried before & failed every time. This past yr the 1st hr of Toonami beat 11p often enough & as we see from the 18-49 there is no reason to believe Toonami can't edge out orig comedy there in the prime demogs. This is why I believe adhd = Toonami expansion. Who doubts that adhd will hurt orig comedy more than Toonami? When that happens Toonami expansion makes more $ sense to all at [as]. It's ironic, but adhd's presence is actually a good thing for Toonami because it weakens any argument for original comedy vs it. How long will adhd last? Figure a long time because FOX has made it clear they are more interested in the aggregate ratings (tv, mobile, net) than the tv ones. As long as it's a hit on the net it's likely to stay on tv.

---

It goes w/out saying that FOX is going to forbid [as] from going h2h with Anim Dom shows vs adhd. The only question then is how wide that window will be. With adhd likely to start at 12a for the fall football months, that means 2a would be the earliest then. If enough stations decide to follow it up with an hr of Anim Dom shows that would extend to 3a. So even my suggestion may not be possible.

---

Jeff, you are correct. Nielsen is more of a mystery now than it's ever been & what's worse is that there's ample opportunity for collusion. Comcast represents 45m homes in America. Is it mere coincidence that with them providing set top data to Nielsen that NBC ratings have risen from the gutter? I think not. Who's policing Comcast against manipulation of those numbers? What we have now is that the very providers of the data that is used to QA Nielsen's system represent the networks for which they serve. What happened to conflict of interest? The net result of all the many hands in the manipulation then is inflation of the #'s & I suspect that's what's happening. TV ratings are not declining fast enough with respect to expansion of viewing habits away from non-TV devices. This is why I stress repeatedly that the rankings, & how competitive programs are in their slots is what really matters to the advertisers who have to fit the bill for the inflation.