"Young Justice" News & Discussion Thread, Part 26 (Spoilers)

[Srebak]

You lost me right there... Why would you be worrying if one show is better than the other? If you're a DC fan as you say, than this shouldn't be something holding you back from watching any DC show. Sure, you may like Teen Titans more, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't watch other shows just because you don't want to watch any shows that are better than Teen Titans. You would be doing yourself a disservice as a DC fan.

Also, I don't necessarily understand what you meant by "my mind [had] a field day" when discussing Alpha Male, as I thought that episode was fine and enjoyed it just like all the others.

I hope you can enjoy any and all quality DC animation in the future. Also, I don't want you to think I'm telling you that you have to like Young Justice because it is amazing and anyone who hasn't seen it isn't amazing, or something stupid like that. Opinions and interests are all subjective stuff, so you may just not like Young Justice. I'm just saying that it seems you don't have a good reason for not enjoying it nor do you have a good reason for not liking it.

When i said "my mind had a field day" i meant that my overactive imagination took scenes that i already had some issues with (and some that i didn't) and made them worse (more embarrassing and hard to think about)

 

[CyberCubed]

When i said "my mind had a field day" i meant that my overactive imagination took scenes that i already had some issues with (and some that i didn't) and made them worse (more embarrassing and hard to think about)

What does this even mean? You sound like you're going through trauma thinking about a DC cartoon.

It's understandable to think about aspects of the show that lead into fanfiction territory but there's nothing these shows did that should make you uncomfortable.

They're kids cartoons, after all.

 

[-batmat-]

Even though it's been a year since the show ended, I started watching it just a couple of months ago and finished it yesterday. I loved the show. I think I can make a comparison between Season 1 resembling Justice League, focusing on the Team, which had great character development and Season 2 resembling JL Unlimited, with an expanded team but less character development in return. Season 1 overall was better in my opinion but Season 2 was nowhere near bad, just Season 1 a little better.

I can't believe the outcome of that one character in the final episode, totally grabbed me off guard and had my girlfriend on tears. Young Justice will be missed.
Here's hoping for a return, as a DTV or the most unlikely situation, a 3rd season.

 

[CyberCubed]

I can't believe the outcome of that one character in the final episode, totally grabbed me off guard and had my girlfriend on tears. Young Justice will be missed.
Here's hoping for a return, as a DTV or the most unlikely situation, a 3rd season.

Yeah the decision they made was terrible. They should have had the adult Flash (Barry Gordon) be the one to die and then Wally take over the mantle of the Flash...like you would expect.

The whole theme of the show is for the kids to become their mentors...so why they chose to kill off Wally over Barry is beyond me.

 

[Yojimbo]

The whole theme of the show is for the kids to become their mentors...so why they chose to kill off Wally over Barry is beyond me.

It was a death that had impact on the fans, someone they grew to care a lot about despite his limited appearances in season 2.

 

[Cad2686]

It was a death that had impact on the fans, someone they grew to care a lot about despite his limited appearances in season 2.

Not to mention that Weisman is a huge fan of Barry Allen and never would have allowed Wally to be the Flash.

 

[Yojimbo]

Not to mention that Weisman is a huge fan of Barry Allen and never would have allowed Wally to be the Flash.

I believe they were originally going to or considered killing Barry off first but later chose Wally. Barry would have been too obvious a choice and less of an impact on the fans.

 

[Frontier]

Barry dying would have had an impact on me .

Though seriously, I can definitely see that as having been the reasoning behind why they ultimately killed off Wally. But has Greg Weisman ever outright said he's a big fan of Barry?

I do remember people theorizing that Greg preferred John over Hal as Green Lantern and that's why the former appeared far more often than the latter...

 

[Yojimbo]

Though seriously, I can definitely see that as having been the reasoning behind why they ultimately killed off Wally. But has Greg Weisman ever outright said he's a big fan of Barry?

I doubt it, he usually gives the "they're all my children" reply. But I recall he is good friends with Cary Bates, who wrote Flash/Barry pre-Crisis. Pretty much as you see him on the show.

I do remember people theorizing that Greg preferred John over Hal as Green Lantern and that's why the former appeared far more often than the latter...

There was a Hal-centric show at the time though. I know he's gone on the record saying neither have big roles on purpose since they both lack proteges.

 

[Frontier]

I always was a little disappointed that Hal was the only member of the original seven to never get a proper line or focus. The best he got was speaking in tandem with John against Guy joining the League .

I wonder if Dee Bradley Baker, who voiced him there, was intended from the beginning to voice Hal or if he was only used just because they needed somebody to voice Hal?

 

[Srebak]

What does this even mean? You sound like you're going through trauma thinking about a DC cartoon.

It's understandable to think about aspects of the show that lead into fanfiction territory but there's nothing these shows did that should make you uncomfortable.

They're kids cartoons, after all.

Let me try to phrase this as best i can: I'm watching a Young Justice Episode, i'm eager to see where it goes, but then i see a scene that i wished had gone differently. I try to keep going in hopes of the rest of the episode making up for it, but the memory of that one scene won't leave my mind, and to make matters worse, my imagination adds to the scene and makes it even harder to forget about. For example, in "Alpha Male", i would have preferred to focus on the addition of Wolf and the introduction of the Brain and Mallah, but instead, my thoughts were mainly focused on the brief spat between Conner and M'Gaann. And if that wasn't bad enough, my mind keeps thinking of new ways to make Conner look like a fool in that scene. The fact of the matter is, my imagination has a habit of turning on me in this fashion more times than i would like.

Also, technically, Young Justice is too mature to be a 100% kids' cartoon

 

[Cad2686]

I believe they were originally going to or considered killing Barry off first but later chose Wally. Barry would have been too obvious a choice and less of an impact on the fans.

It was always going to be Wally. The only time they considered changing it to Barry was due to Wally's "surprising" popularity, but they nixed that idea pretty fast. And it's not that Weisman dislikes Wally, he just doesn't think he works as well as the Flash.

Though saying they did it for the "impact it'd have on the fans" always bugged me because Wally was a complete nonfactor to the seasonal plot. If you're going to kill off a character for the impact it'd have on the fans, then those fans deserve to have the character play a decent role throughout the season otherwise it's nothing more than cheap manipulation in my opinion. Really, I thought Bart would have been a shocking choice that would have fit with both the character's storyline and the seasonal plot while having an impact on the fans.

Barry dying would have had an impact on me .

Though seriously, I can definitely see that as having been the reasoning behind why they ultimately killed off Wally. But has Greg Weisman ever outright said he's a big fan of Barry?

Weisman mentioned that he was a big fan of Barry, Jay, and Wally over at Ask Greg a long time ago. Here's what he said (I'd link it but its not cooperating at the moment):

2. I do love Flash. (I love a lot of super-heroes, frankly.) I'm a big fan of Jay, Barry and Wally. I'm fairly well-versed in older stuff. Less so on the more recent stuff. I like a lot of what my buddy Cary Bates did with Barry. Gardner Fox's work on Jay was cool too. And I've always like Wally as Kid Flash. But also enjoyed some of Mike Baron's stuff when post-crisis Wally graduated to be Flash.

This also pretty much goes with what he said when he was kind enough to stop and talk to me for a few minutes at a Con years ago (before YJ was a thing). He was there for Gargoyles, but we talked about comics; specifically about Wally (I brought him up since he had always been my favorite DC character) and Barry. It was clear that Barry was his preference for the Flash and that he thought Wally worked much better as Kid Flash. Which again, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Yojimbo]

It was always going to be Wally. The only time they considered changing it to Barry was due to Wally's "surprising" popularity, but they nixed that idea pretty fast. And it's not that Weisman dislikes Wally, he just doesn't think he works as well as the Flash.

Though saying they did it for the "impact it'd have on the fans" always bugged me because Wally was a complete nonfactor to the seasonal plot. If you're going to kill off a character for the impact it'd have on the fans, then those fans deserve to have the character play a decent role throughout the season otherwise it's nothing more than cheap manipulation in my opinion. Really, I thought Bart would have been a shocking choice that would have fit with both the character's storyline and the seasonal plot while having an impact on the fans

Ah, yes. Thanks for clearing that up.

Yeah, that is a common argument. I suppose they were thinking in terms of the series as a whole rather than season two. Sure, Bart would have been a shocker but they set up the notion of Bart being as fast as Flash so couldn't have really been anyone but Wally since he was always slower. I don't Barry or Jay would have been too obvious a choice. I suppose if the solution didn't have to do with speed, some would have thought Blue Beetle since he was a heavy feature in season 2.

Weisman mentioned that he was a big fan of Barry, Jay, and Wally over at Ask Greg a long time ago. Here's what he said (I'd link it but its not cooperating at the moment):

Cool, thanks for finding it!

 

[ShadowStar]

Remember that before the show started, there was a video interview with Greg Weisman where he said something like, "not everyone is going to make it". The interviewer reacted in surprise and Greg then sarcastically added, "and I'll tell you who's dying...".

After "Denial" aired, everyone believed that this was just referring to Kent Nelson and possibly other minor characters who would bite the dust as the series progressed. But then it became clear at the beginning of season 2 with the time-skip that Greg and Brandon had very long-term plans... so, for argument's sake, Wally's death at the end of season 2 may have been decided on back when season 1 was in production.

Wally dying instead of Barry wasn't totally unexpected anyway because we knew from the word go that this show was in a parallel universe (see: Garth, Donna, Roy). Figures that a Flash would still perish, but in this case, as others have said, the one who was a central figure in the show.

If the show had continued, we may well have had more deaths, though obviously any on-screen ones like Wally's would have had to have been done in a bloodless manner.

Come to think of it, I wonder if it's significant that it was Wally who got to know Kent Nelson briefly, and then Wally followed suit in dying onscreen like Kent. Perhaps Dr. Fate could've been key to a possible eventual revival/return storyline for Wally in a later season.

 

[reflection01]

Yeah the decision they made was terrible. They should have had the adult Flash (Barry Gordon) be the one to die and then Wally take over the mantle of the Flash...like you would expect. The whole theme of the show is for the kids to become their mentors...so why they chose to kill off Wally over Barry is beyond me.

So Bart could become his mentor. Which they actually showed.

 

[Cad2686]

Ah, yes. Thanks for clearing that up.

Yeah, that is a common argument. I suppose they were thinking in terms of the series as a whole rather than season two. Sure, Bart would have been a shocker but they set up the notion of Bart being as fast as Flash so couldn't have really been anyone but Wally since he was always slower. I don't Barry or Jay would have been too obvious a choice. I suppose if the solution didn't have to do with speed, some would have thought Blue Beetle since he was a heavy feature in season 2.

But sidelining a character for over half the season and basically isolating them from most of the cast just diminishes the impact (and I thought they diminished everything about the character along the way). It's hard to miss what's already basically gone. And personally, I have always hated the strategy of phasing a former "main" character out of the show and then bringing them back only so they can be killed off. It's always struck me as lazy storytelling. Wanting the appearance that they did something significant without actually doing anything significant. Expecting people to care about a character they already stopped caring about themselves. It's cheap. Then again, Wally was never an important character on this show despite his popularity.

As for Bart, they weren't locked in to the death going down exactly the way it did. So him being faster doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't have killed him off. And I actually liked the idea of Bart dying simply because we know he'd be reborn again and it would have been a fitting end to his arc. As it is, I would have had no interest in him being Kid Flash since he was already a superior speedster/hero than Wally ever was, and that the two of them had no real on-screen relationship. Wally handing down the KF mantle to Bart in "Summit" was the most contrived thing I seen happen on the show. Really, they should have just left him as Impulse in my opinion.

 

[Deshaded]

This show had long-term plans. It wanted to introduce Darkseid in Season 3 and laid the groundwork for all that in Season 1's "Disordered" and even before that in "Bereft." Apokoliptan weapon technology was everywhere, and The Light had a reliable method of getting it.

The fact that Wally had zero presence in Season 2 and that he didn't have to die, and he did die, in the finale of all episodes, makes it extremely obvious to me he was meant to have a large supporting role in Season 3. I don't see Wally's death as a conclusion in the show, because it was never meant to be. Some say Season 2 was horrible because of the expanded-cast and the timeskip, but if JL can go Unlimited for 39 episodes, I bet Weisman was expecting he could get more Invasion than 20.

Another example for me would be Artemis's arc in the show. Season 1 she tries to make everyone (and herself) believe she's a hero..concludes with her trusting The Team with her secret that she comes from a family of villains. Season 2 she kills "Artemis" and becomes a villain, struggles to remember who she really is, and hides her secret from The Team that she's alive, that she's not really a bad guy. She goes through all of this and her ending is...losing Wally? That narrative doesn't make any sense. Leaving Artemis FOREVER on a sad note was a worse injustice than a sudden Wally death, who's had no impact and continues to be a plot device for Artemis's story. I don't know if Season 3 would have seen Artemis become an actual villain as Tigress, but she had more story planned out. DEFINITELY.

 

[Yojimbo]

From the viewers' POV, Wally was on the sidelines. But I get the drift Weisman writes from the macroscopic view, not the micro. And while it was 20 episodes and 6 months... he does have a 280+ timeline covering 47,990 BCE to 2056 AD and I think he was writing from that notion, not from a 46 episode perspective. The episodes aren't like 24 where every second is accounted for. There's just so much we don't know. I accepted not everyone can be in every episode and was happy to get the comics and video game and try and fill in some of the events the show couldn't get to. And even that wasn't enough and even if Weisman and Vietti got cart blanche to go on forever, I don't think there still wouldn't be enough time.

 

[Cleg25]

The problem I had with Wally being sidelined during season two is that they literally had to go against all of his previous characterization to do it. It's something that I could have overlooked if not for his confrontation with Dick in Darkest. But having him continue to sit things out until Summit after that was borderline character assassination in my opinion.

 

[ShadowStar]

The fact that Wally had zero presence in Season 2 and that he didn't have to die, and he did die, in the finale of all episodes, makes it extremely obvious to me he was meant to have a large supporting role in Season 3.

I can't buy into this... There's no way they would 'cheat' the viewers by having an emotional 'death' scene in a season finale, only to bring that character back for a large role in the next season. Now, maybe he could've returned towards the end of season 3, sure, though his return would have to come at a cost, otherwise "Endgame" would be robbed of its sadness. Perhaps he would be revived as a significantly older version of his former self. Or maybe he would be exactly the same, while a significant amount of time would have passed for his friends and family. The latter seems more likely to me, because it would be a punch in the gut if he was the same old Wally, ready to pick up from where he left off, but finding that it's impossible since everyone (including Artemis) had aged and changed a lot. It would be like Starfire's predicament in the Teen Titans episode "How Long is Forever?". But for this to really succeed as an emotional twist, lots of time would need to pass, not just 3-5 years. So it seems to me that Wally might have come back in season 4, not season 3, when Artemis could potentially be as much as 10 years older than him (or more), with no hope of the couple reuniting. It would have to be done along these lines, or the season 2 finale would lose a great deal of its purpose. The longer the crew behind the show were prepared to wait to bring Wally back, the harder it would be emotionally for the character to fit in when he DID eventually come back, so a return in season 4 or even season 5 would work better than a return in season 3.

Think of Artemis and Bart's poignant conversation on the Watchtower in "Endgame", from the dialogue to the music. I can't see the crew rushing to undermine this scene in the very next season.

We should probably also consider that maybe a Flash did have to die... Earth-16 is a parallel universe where some choice deviations from the timeline of the comics has a butterfly effect on how everything plays out. For example, Kaldur'ahm becoming Aqualad instead of Garth. Garth was still there in this continuity, he could've still become Aqualad. But he declined: a small, decisive moment which changed everything for this continuity. Likewise, in the finale, Wally dies, in what was obviously supposed to mirror Barry's death in the comics, I believe. Key events from the comics were being adapted, and the death of a Flash was one of them. With the whole world threatened by the MFD, this was a good time for Greg and Brandon to play that card.

At least we agree that Wally would've come back though! I think the next step in Artemis's story would be accepting his passing (even though it would ultimately turn out that he's alive). And then on his return, they would have to deal with seeing each other again but not being able to reunite as a couple due to the age gap. "Endgame" may not have been the end of Wally, but it was the end of their relationship, just like young love can come to a cruel, abrupt end in real life.