Why is Superman so weak?

[Bobbywoodhogan]

I have to say Supermans weak and I dont like it. The Superman in The Batman Beyond episode "The Call" is the best interpatation of how Supes should always be... super. He was lifting ships and holding up buildings. That is a Superman. No one said he has to move planets. But things like lifting trucks shouldnt be a sweat for the guy.

Yeah I agree with this, one thing I also loved about Superman Beyond was when he ran at super speed across the sea to get back to the city. Infact the Call is probably my favourite DCAU episode(s) ever.

 

[Yojimbo]

Yeah I agree with this, one thing I also loved about Superman Beyond was when he ran at super speed across the sea to get back to the city. Infact the Call is probably my favourite DCAU episode(s) ever.

Naturally, by the Beyond era Superman's had decades of experience not to mention decades of soaking up the Sun's rays. There's also the sillier notions of no cape in the way and Starro was in control.

 

[Nightwing26]

I'd say he was more of a jerk on Young Justice than JLU, seeing as how YJ didn't really play to his strengths as a character on the rare occasions where he actually got to talk or do something other than just stand there.

I agree he is/was very lame in YJ, a very "dead beat dad" type personality...
D.

This is a bit late, but I thought I just wanted to add something to this. In my opinion, Superman is nowhere near as bad as you guys make him out to be. What the series tries to do, is to show how Superman was raised, and how his reaction would be. He finds it hard to believe he has "a son". Eventually, in Invasion (Season 2) he's much closer to Superboy, calling him "brother". And I'd say he's much more of a Boy Scout in YJ (while still dealing the blows) than JL. You can tell with the way he tries to save the Kroloteans, the way he speaks during his trial on Rimbor, and how he rubbed off on Superboy, who is against the morally wrong things Miss Martian does.

Btw, I didn't mean to offend you guys! If I did, then I'm sorry!!

 

[Wonderwall]

All good points about YJ but I think that kind of illustrates another problem is that all the development between the two happened off screen. After all the build up to them being closer it felt like a big cop out.

 

[Dusty]

This is a bit late, but I thought I just wanted to add something to this. In my opinion, Superman is nowhere near as bad as you guys make him out to be. What the series tries to do, is to show how Superman was raised, and how his reaction would be. He finds it hard to believe he has "a son". Eventually, in Invasion (Season 2) he's much closer to Superboy, calling him "brother". And I'd say he's much more of a Boy Scout in YJ (while still dealing the blows) than JL. You can tell with the way he tries to save the Kroloteans, the way he speaks during his trial on Rimbor, and how he rubbed off on Superboy, who is against the morally wrong things Miss Martian does.

Btw, I didn't mean to offend you guys! If I did, then I'm sorry!!

No worries I wasn't offended, and funny you mention this as I was just watching YJ' "Auld Aquaintance" and thought while Superman could have handled the situation better, he did end up coming around and acted more like Superman should (he was late, but... better late than never, lol.)



D.

 

[The Dark Lord]

The DCAU did better at trying to make a "human", less perfect Superman.

 

[JTMarsh]

This is a bit late, but I thought I just wanted to add something to this. In my opinion, Superman is nowhere near as bad as you guys make him out to be. What the series tries to do, is to show how Superman was raised, and how his reaction would be. He finds it hard to believe he has "a son". Eventually, in Invasion (Season 2) he's much closer to Superboy, calling him "brother". And I'd say he's much more of a Boy Scout in YJ (while still dealing the blows) than JL. You can tell with the way he tries to save the Kroloteans, the way he speaks during his trial on Rimbor, and how he rubbed off on Superboy, who is against the morally wrong things Miss Martian does.

Btw, I didn't mean to offend you guys! If I did, then I'm sorry!!

No offense taken. Thing is YJ didn't make much effort to explore Superman's perspective, his feelings or how this all conflicted with his background and upbringing beyond him screaming "I'M NOT HIS FATHER!", probably because Weisman & co figured "Well he's Superman, everyone knows where Superman comes from, they'll just go with it." (disregarding the polarizing effect Superman can have on fans and general audiences alike). This leaves us with an empty, vacant character, and it's hard not to think of him as an unsympathetic jerk given how little character development he has. For all we know he only went and congratulated Superboy at the end of "Auld Acquaintance" because Batman or someone else in the League chastised him into it (the fact that Superman couldn't be nice to Superboy until Superboy saved his life makes him look kinda petty and self-absorbed). Which leads us to what Wonderwall said -

All good points about YJ but I think that kind of illustrates another problem is that all the development between the two happened off screen. After all the build up to them being closer it felt like a big cop out.

And I would definitely agree that was a huge cop out, and a strange one since you'd think that Superboy's relationship with Superman would be an important relationship to explore and development. Watching their scenes in "Alienated" was like watching the scenes between Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi in Episodes II and III of the Star Wars prequels - both relationships are so woefully underdeveloped and underwritten that they basically don't exist, causing scenes that are supposed to be really touching and poignant to fall flat. The scenes of him trying to save the Kroloteans and him on trial also feel strangely empty and hollow, but that could just be due to Nolan North being miscast in the role.

 

[Nightwing26]

Another thing I wanted to add: we have to remember, YJ is about the Team, not the League or Superman, so it makes sense we don't see it from his perspective, but it's not hard to imagine it from his perspective, right?

 

[Dusty]

Another thing I wanted to add: we have to remember, YJ is about the Team, not the League or Superman, so it makes sense we don't see it from his perspective, but it's not hard to imagine it from his perspective, right?

In theory it shouldn't be hard to imagine, because... He's Superman!... Meaning he should always (ALWAYS!) do the right thing. lol


D.

 

[ganon51]

In theory it shouldn't be hard to imagine, because... He's Superman!... Meaning he should always (ALWAYS!) do the right thing. lol


D.

One thing, mate, how did Supes have a more "superman-ish" personality in JL S1 than he did in all if STAS.

 

[Dusty]

He tried to reason with villains before wanting to just pound them, he was less aggressive, and more diplomatic. "In Blackest Night" shows this very well, same with "Paradise Lost" but then you get episodes like "Twilight" or "Starcrossed" where yeah, he needed to fight, but his dialog and attitude were not Superman-ish to me... not even close. Again this is all my opinion though, so take it with a grain of salt.

Edit: JLU's episodes where he was lame:
"The Return" is an example along with of course "Clash" (Superman was so stupid in that episode... period. I don't care if he was stressed about Lex and all that, Superman acted way out of character just to appease fans or the creators that wanted to see him and Captain Marvel fight.) As for "The Return" Superman and everyone knew how powerful Amazo was... why couldn't Superman say to Amazo: "before you just rush in here and try to kill Lex let's talk about all the destruction you could cause or like you said before leaving Earth you are above all this, why do you need to come back and kill a being far less powerful than you?" (just examples of what he could have said) instead of "Turn back now." Of course the guy is not going to turn back, you haven't given him a real reason to. He knows he will mop the floor with all of them, but had Superman tried to better reason with him it could have turned out better for him (Superman) and the league... (yes, I know the writers wrote what they did, and the story was what it was, but still Superman was lame.) There are many more "instances" where Supes was a flat out jerk. Later I may write more examples from STAS, but for now I gotta run.

Also, again this is all just my opinion on this subject.



D.

 

[ganon51]

He tried to reason with villains before wanting to just pound them, he was less aggressive, and more diplomatic. "In Blackest Night" shows this very well, same with "Paradise Lost" but then you get episodes like "Twilight" or "Starcrossed" where yeah, he needed to fight, but his dialog and attitude were not Superman-ish to me... not even close. Again this is all my opinion though, so take it with a grain of salt.

Edit: JLU's episodes where he was lame:
"The Return" is an example along with of course "Clash" (Superman was so stupid in that episode... period. I don't care if he was stressed about Lex and all that, Superman acted way out of character just to appease fans or the creators that wanted to see him and Captain Marvel fight.) As for "The Return" Superman and everyone knew how powerful Amazo was... why couldn't Superman say to Amazo: "before you just rush in here and try to kill Lex let's talk about all the destruction you could cause or like you said before leaving Earth you are above all this, why do you need to come back and kill a being far less powerful than you?" (just examples of what he could have said) instead of "Turn back now." Of course the guy is not going to turn back, you haven't given him a real reason to. He knows he will mop the floor with all of them, but had Superman tried to better reason with him it could have turned out better for him (Superman) and the league... (yes, I know the writers wrote what they did, and the story was what it was, but still Superman was lame.) There are many more "instances" where Supes was a flat out jerk. Later I may write more examples from STAS, but for now I gotta run.

Also, again this is all just my opinion on this subject.



D.

When you put it that way, there were plenty of times in STAS Supes was more diplomatic towards his adversaries; with Bizarro, with Livewire in "Livewire", with Maxima in "Warrior Queen", Mala in "Blasts from the Past pt. 1", Ra's and Talia in "Demon Reborn", Darkseid in "Father's Day", etc. On top of that Tim Daly's Superman voice is just more relaxed and passive which helps in "seeming less aggressive" as you say, compared to Newburn's more tense and harsh Superman voice. Not to mention they were going for a more human-like down to earth Superman for STAS.

 

[reflection01]

Part of the Cadmus story was that Superman was become less reasonable as a result of being pushed by Cadmus and confronting the legitimate fears that people have that he was too powerful. It was a nice departure from the boy scout persona.

 

[Dusty]

When you put it that way, there were plenty of times in STAS Supes was more diplomatic towards his adversaries; with Bizarro, with Livewire in "Livewire", with Maxima in "Warrior Queen", Mala in "Blasts from the Past pt. 1", Ra's and Talia in "Demon Reborn", Darkseid in "Father's Day", etc. On top of that Tim Daly's Superman voice is just more relaxed and passive which helps in "seeming less aggressive" as you say, compared to Newburn's more tense and harsh Superman voice. Not to mention they were going for a more human-like down to earth Superman for STAS.

Yeah for sure there were instances where he was awesome... but as a whole... STAS had a sucky Superman IMO. JL (while he was not as strong as he was in comics or JLU) he was perfectly chill and acted more like Superman would/should. Don't get me wrong though, I still enjoy STAS, I grew up with it and just recently watched it again on DVD. It is fun I am just saying I much prefer JL's Superman over STAS but that doesn't mean I hate STAS by any means.

Part of the Cadmus story was that Superman was become less reasonable as a result of being pushed by Cadmus and confronting the legitimate fears that people have that he was too powerful. It was a nice departure from the boy scout persona.

I get what they were trying to do but the main thing they wanted to see was Superman fight Captain Marvel. The episode where Superman finds out that Hamilton freaking took Supergirls DNA would have made more sense for him to go bonkers, but no instead it was "there is a box down there in the ground I Superman, must destroy it, and not try listen to reason first."
(following *sarcasm is not directed at anyone...) *sarcasm*** Cause Lex has always been the type of guy who would blow up thousands of people right? *end sarcasm***

No in reality or in the comics and in the show Lex wouldn't do that right there out in the open, plus he still just stood there during the fight, why would he do that with a "bomb" right beneath him?... I wanted to yell to Superman that unless Lex is wanting to kill himself why would there be a bomb?!? The fight was to please fans and the creators who wanted it. Again just my opinion, but watching the episode several times... it doesn't make any sense for them to fight aside from people just wanting them to beat each other up.


D.

 

[trance2009]

Basically you need a reason for tension when using Supes.

 

[ganon51]

Yeah for sure there were instances where he was awesome... but as a whole... STAS had a sucky Superman IMO. JL (while he was not as strong as he was in comics or JLU) he was perfectly chill and acted more like Superman would/should. Don't get me wrong though, I still enjoy STAS, I grew up with it and just recently watched it again on DVD. It is fun I am just saying I much prefer JL's Superman over STAS but that doesn't mean I hate STAS by any means.

Superman was mostly chill in STAS as well! In S1 Newburn lacked that authoritative yet down to earth-ness in his voice that Daly had and sounded stale and depressed, but of course his voice improved with S2. One thing that ticked me off about him was in "Injustice For All" when Lex was in the hospital and Supes apologized to him because he got kryptonite poisoning. Did he forget what Lex did back in "Legacy"? it's Lex's own fault for getting poisoned, Supes shouldn't be apologizing.

 

[Syryu35]

Superman was mostly chill in STAS as well! In S1 Newburn lacked that authoritative yet down to earth-ness in his voice that Daly had and sounded stale and depressed, but of course his voice improved with S2. One thing that ticked me off about him was in "Injustice For All" when Lex was in the hospital and Supes apologized to him because he got kryptonite poisoning. Did he forget what Lex did back in "Legacy"? it's Lex's own fault for getting poisoned, Supes shouldn't be apologizing.

I didn't think that was too weird. It's like Batman saving the Joker all the time, even though the Joker doesn't deserve an ounce of mercy. They go after these guys for so long that some odd rapport develops and when something permanent happens to either party it effects them in ways they don't expect or understand. Then again Superman is the ultimate good guy so displaying some regret and sympathy for his worst enemy isn't that out of character for him anyway.

 

[ganon51]

I didn't think that was too weird. It's like Batman saving the Joker all the time, even though the Joker doesn't deserve an ounce of mercy. They go after these guys for so long that some odd rapport develops and when something permanent happens to either party it effects them in ways they don't expect or understand. Then again Superman is the ultimate good guy so displaying some regret and sympathy for his worst enemy isn't that out of character for him anyway.

Perhaps they made him too nice in S1, after watching "Legacy" I just don't picture STAS Supes apologizing for Lex's own mistakes, especially since he was using kryptonite against Supes the whole time.

 

[Dusty]

Superman was mostly chill in STAS as well! In S1 Newburn lacked that authoritative yet down to earth-ness in his voice that Daly had and sounded stale and depressed, but of course his voice improved with S2. One thing that ticked me off about him was in "Injustice For All" when Lex was in the hospital and Supes apologized to him because he got kryptonite poisoning. Did he forget what Lex did back in "Legacy"? it's Lex's own fault for getting poisoned, Supes shouldn't be apologizing.

Superman was not Chill most of the time in STAS... IMO... I'd say maybe 55-60% of the time he was. The other times... no, not really, his tone of voice was the thing that quite often bugged me... too cocky or too aggressive, and that is what happened in JLS2 as well. I did love the episodes of STAS where Supes was cool like "Identity Crisis" where he was trying to calm the fake Superman (Bizarro) down, or in the episode with Flash (he was pretty darn cool.) But then some other episodes were too Testosterone filled... (lack of a better word.) Also as someone mentioned before Superman apologizing to Lex is totally how he should react. If you haven't already, you should watch Smallville or read some of the early 2000's comics. All Star Superman is the biggest example for a comic that comes to mind... The two rogue Kryptonians were trying to kill him and take over the world... yet he turned around and helped save their lives. Again as someone mentioned before... Batman does the same for Joker. We all know Joker doesn't deserve that... not even close. So how is it out of character for Superman... I get you don't like Justice League Season One Superman... so why not just leave it at that? I am not trying to be a Mod or bossy Betty, just saying what is the point of this? We are never going to really convince one another of which is better or anything.

D.

 

[BigFatHairyDeal]

Also as someone mentioned before Superman apologizing to Lex is totally how he should react. If you haven't already, you should watch Smallville or read some of the early 2000's comics. All Star Superman is the biggest example for a comic that comes to mind...
D.

If I you read "All-Star Superman," you'd see Superman punch out Lex toward the end of issue 12 [um, spoilers...? ]

I hated Smallville, so pass.

If you read Superman in the Golden Age, you'd know he'd never stand there and apologize to Luthor. Of course, that's not Golden Age Superman, but apologizing to Lex is probably the perfect example for why the Toonzone Watchtower Superman page has that quote saying, "It’s just that, by modern standards, [Superman] can come off as quaint or corny or out-dated, if not handled properly." I can't think of anything cornier, or handled more improperly than a hero coddling a criminal he perfectly well knows is an amoral scumbag beyond reform.

Edit: Actually, I did watch the series finale of Smallville just to see how'd they finally introduce Superman after 10 years, and he took a hard line against Lex. Even that mopey Clark knew there was a time not to kowtow to Luthor.