"Young Justice" News & Discussion Thread, Part 24 (Spoilers)

[KYO'NYUU IMOUTO]

Uhhh, before you talk about "more cost-effective animation," you should see what a godawful piece of garbage Sonic X (a Sonic-the-Hedgehog 'toon the CW is showing) really is. If the story and production work are no-good, producing it with cheaper animation won't save it from oblivion; but if the story and stagecraft are good, it will live on and overcome its animation shortcomings. After all, there IS a reason why Shakespeare and certain Greek tragedies are still with us. But that part of crafting the story and series takes time and effort, and you get what you pay for...

Sonic X is likely made on a shoestring budget of about $100,000 an episode (the average Japanese animated series episode costs $100,000-300,000) with production partners (the TV network, merchandising) to help recoup costs. Young Justice doesn't have production partners (thanks to poor handling on WBA's part). Sonic X mostly exists to sell merchandise to kids, so TMS can get away without giving the series too much of a budget. Young Justice on the other hand hasn't really existed for any reason in years, yet continually eats up the studio's money.

The average American cartoon supposedly costs $300,000-500,000. For the sake of fairness, let's assume each Young Justice episode has a production budget of about $500,000. It still reals in less impressive results than a show made with less thanks to selective use of the budget and animation (i.e. some episodes are produced cheaply while important episodes are produced with higher than average budget). In contrast to a show like Sonic X, there's a clear difference in the quality of the producers' decision-making.

If I may agree somewhat with TheVileOne's point, if WBA changed their tactics they could produce higher-quality animation for less money (and perhaps charge less for licensing). Episodes like the last two or three of Young Justice: Invasion could've been stripped of most of their budget so that that money could go toward the final episode, for example. Evenly placing one's eggs doesn't always yield the most impressive results, after all.

*I'm also pretty sure Sonic X wasn't made in flash as Jeff was suggesting, so the comparison can't quite go there.

 

[Northern Sun]

I found that line in the interview to be inaccurate as well, unless Wally drank an invisibility potion or comes back starting this Saturday.

Either that or Wally's going to show up in a big way during the fourth quarter.

 

[RoryWilliams]

Personally I would have added ether Tim or Batgirl, not both. having so many Bat characters dilutes their individual chances to shine.

I agree. Tim at least has had two episodes showing him struggling with leadership positions. It's something. Barbara is just wallpaper at this point. If it weren't for the all-girl team-up episode I would've forgotten she was even in the show.

 

[TheVileOne]

I'm not even sure a cheaper animation is possible for these shows to still be good. I agree you get what you pay for. At the same time, I would like to see these shows to continue and grow longer. And I'm just trying to spitball ideas. But I imagine one reason the shows tend to not last over two seasons is the overseas animation model set-up and the cost and time it takes to do the show overseas.

I mean the high quality animation for these shows is a big feather in their cap, at the same time I think you can still have good shows and stories even if the animation isn't like A-plus quality.

 

[Yojimbo]

I agree. Tim at least has had two episodes showing him struggling with leadership positions. It's something. Barbara is just wallpaper at this point. If it weren't for the all-girl team-up episode I would've forgotten she was even in the show.

She did a pretty good job in "Before The Dawn" taking a lead. Cool entrance in the season two opener, too, imo.

 

[KYO'NYUU IMOUTO]

I'm not even sure a cheaper animation is possible for these shows to still be good. I agree you get what you pay for. At the same time, I would like to see these shows to continue and grow longer. And I'm just trying to spitball ideas. But I imagine one reason the shows tend to not last over two seasons is the overseas animation model set-up and the cost and time it takes to do the show overseas.

I mean the high quality animation for these shows is a big feather in their cap, at the same time I think you can still have good shows and stories even if the animation isn't like A-plus quality.

The overseas issue isn't the problem. If it were cheaper to produce animation in America these shows would be animated in America. It's the same reason why a lot of Japanese TV animation outsources to Korea and China, it's cheaper and quicker than finding another Japanese studio or building too large of an in-house/contract pool. Toei Animation (and Lucasfilms) have studios in the Philippines to do a lot of their in-betweens and other finishing details. Young Justice appears to be animated entirely at MOI Animation, just as The Legend of Korra appears to be animated entirely by Mir Animation. While this ensures consistency, I would wonder whether or not this places a strain on production that leads to rising costs. Still, we're talking about outsourcing, which is only done for the sake of being cheap. Of course, if American animation practices are being employed via direction from staff in America I assume that means the budget is being mishandled anyway and we wind up with animation that while consistant looks nothing like a half million dollars. C'est la vie, I suppose...

 

[Primal Slayer]

On the subject of ratings, if we are to believe the word that CN has to pay huge licensing fees for the series I am not surprised that they're not ordering more. Those are probably a third of what they should be to justify ordering more.

And yet CN will have to do that with every DC show that they order. They will have to do it with batman and TT. CN or WB shouldve done what other networks do and try to cheapin the licensing fee as the show went on. YJ was winning its timeslot so the ratings werent horrible. But since CN doesnt really care about majority of their shows they rather just cancel them and it would help them if they did charge for actual commercials instead of always promoting their own stuff during breaks.

 

[TheVileOne]

I know animation is outsourcing is done to keep things cheaper, but I wonder if that's still the case.

Wolverine and the X-Men was animated I think in India or France maybe but they still didn't have the financing to put season 2 into animation production.

 

[KYO'NYUU IMOUTO]

And yet CN will have to do that with every DC show that they order. They will have to do it with batman and TT. CN or WB shouldve done what other networks do and try to cheapin the licensing fee as the show went on. YJ was winning its timeslot so the ratings werent horrible. But since CN doesnt really care about majority of their shows they rather just cancel them and it would help them if they did charge for actual commercials instead of always promoting their own stuff during breaks.

The thing about that is we don't even know the licensing fees or how they vary between titles. Not to mention these two upcoming titles might actually work out.

I know animation is outsourcing is done to keep things cheaper, but I wonder if that's still the case.

Wolverine and the X-Men was animated I think in India or France maybe but they still didn't have the financing to put season 2 into animation production.

Any show (no matter the cost) requires merchandising, unless it's being privately funded by an eccentric fan. Even if Young Justice was being produced cheaper somebody is going to need to be making money off of more than just ratings.

 

[Lighthammer]

The thing I've found funny about the whole merchandise debate that seems to keep missing the radars is the toys might not be selling; but you know what is? Tons and tons of paraphernalia. Comic book shops are making mint off things like statues while Hot Topic and Spencers are making a ton off other DC items such as shirts, buckles and jewelry. Walking into my local Hot Topic; you'd think it was a DC store now and the mere fact is they wouldn't be adding more and more of that stuff if it wasn't selling.

Heck, even with the hurricane this year, the DC store on the Atlantic City Board Walk had their best year ever this year and that one is out right owned by DC. Even at that VINTAGE DC Toys (you know, the sorts you're never going to open up or going to restore if you can find a good priced one) are at record highs on eBay.

I don't know how these things stack up against toy sales; but the demand IS there and I just don't see anyone REALLY monopolizing on it.

 

[VictoryStar]

Wolverine and the X-Men was animated I think in India or France maybe but they still didn't have the financing to put season 2 into animation production.

Wasn't W&X-Men cancelled because of Disney buying Marvel and not the animation costs?

 

[KYO'NYUU IMOUTO]

The thing I've found funny about the whole merchandise debate that seems to keep missing the radars is the toys might not be selling; but you know what is? Tons and tons of paraphernalia. Comic book shops are making mint off things like statues while Hot Topic and Spencers are making a ton off other DC items such as shirts, buckles and jewelry. Walking into my local Hot Topic; you'd think it was a DC store now and the mere fact is they wouldn't be adding more and more of that stuff if it wasn't selling.

Heck, even with the hurricane this year, the DC store on the Atlantic City Board Walk had their best year ever this year and that one is out right owned by DC. Even at that VINTAGE DC Toys (you know, the sorts you're never going to open up or going to restore if you can find a good priced one) are at record highs on eBay.

I don't know how these things stack up against toy sales; but the demand IS there and I just don't see anyone REALLY monopolizing on it.

The question is whether that money can be attributed to Young Justice and Green Lantern: The Animated Series. Even then, the money has to pass through the merchandising partner(s), then WBA, then DC Comics and possibly CN. Of course, neither title has any merchandising beyond DVDs at this point, so such is rather moot.

 

[reflection01]

A Netflix model wouldn't be the best indicator. People will watch something for free under a overall account that they've paid for. Young Justice needs a direct manner of receiving profit for any change to be made.

Not everybody has Netflix. They need more subscribers. That's one reason they're getting into original content. That model has worked well for HBO and other premium channels. They're able to broadcast shows that would be a risk on network or cable.

 

[Light Lucario]

Sorry to disagree, but YJ was and is committed to its story, not trying to gain a fanbase. Holding the fanbase is more properly the task of the network broadcasting the show - after all, the networrk controls scheduling, not the production company. The production company's task is to make the show worth the viewer's time, and Weisman & Co. have seen to that in spades.

I do think that the creative team is also trying to gain more viewers through their storyline. Like Jacob mentioned, it is their job to make the series worthwhile to the audience. Cartoon Network is in charge of the scheduling, but I don't think that it is their responsibility to gain a fanbase for their shows. It definitely helps to have a couple of slots for repeats to help other people get into their shows, but it is the quality of the work that the creative team puts into the show that gains them a fanbase, rather than how the network treats it. I still think that they're doing way too much in just one season and that did make me think of how they could have wanted to do something much bigger than the first season in order to attract more viewers and get another season from Cartoon Network. They were probably just thinking of doing a good story, but I do imagine that the creative team wanted that to happen and that it was one of the motivations for them to do well with this season.

As far as Blue Beetle goes, I don't think that the amount of focus he gets bothers me too much. At least he does connect to the conflict so giving him attention makes sense in that way. I understand why it does bother others a lot more though and one of my main problems for this season has been how they haven't done a lot with most of their new characters. I completely forgot that Wonder Girl and Batgirl were in this show for a couple of weeks. At least the new Robin has had some bit of presence in comparison to them. I think that I would have preferred a different season leading up to this one since it just feels like they're trying to create a huge storyline in a small amount of episodes and I don't think that's going to led to a good conclusion, especially when they aren't getting a third season to further expand on the storylines and characters like they would want.

 

[PretenderNX01]

I think for arguing whether a network or a show holds an audience, it's a bit of both.

It's hard for a show that randomly takes a break during a story arc to hold it's fan's attention.
Granted a "Who shot J.R.?" can hold an audience for months over the summer but that audience also knew the scheduled was 'off in spring back in the fall', year after year.
Yes, that season of Dallas was off in March and back in November, which is pushing it for traditional programing, but still pretty regular.

One time The Sopranos had more than a year between seasons but that was after Season 5, so the fanbase was solid at that point and the next Season (6) was it's final.

Perhaps the story arcs are a turn-off to some but, perhaps the story arcs would have been a turn-on if they were shown on a regular interval. Having an over-all story that lasts for a season isn't a problem for other network's programs.

 

[Marvelman02]

Regarding Deathstroke's agenda... It occurs to me that not every super-villain is going to be pleased with the Light's agenda which seems to be to turn humanity into a race fo slaves for the Reach. I mean... how does this do anything for Catwoman or Mirror Master?

 

[Cad2686]

sticking to the original six? Does that include Wally???

I wouldn't get my hopes up as I think they said something similiar in an interview during the hiatus after "Depths" about the focus shifting back towards the original six and while that's been true in some regards, we've seen Wally only twice since then. And one of those appearances was a non-speaking cameo in "Satisfaction".

At this point, I have a hard time seeing Wally as a secondary character on the show anymore, much less as "a lead". He's only been in five of the thirteen episodes this season by my count ("Salvage", "Bloodlines", "Depths", "Satisfaction", and "Darkest"), and four of those appearances are cameos or guest appearances at best. Plus, in "Bloodlines" he was pretty much just used as a prop to show how much better the Allen's are in comparison.

So I'd think that common sense would say that Wally will be back at some point these last few episodes since he was a main character at one time, but there's not a whole lot this season that would have you believe that.

 

[Deshaded]

This is true. I also don't see any hope for Wally in the rest of this season. Here I (and others) are complaining about lack of secondary character development for Wonder Girl, Batgirl, etc. but Wally is "one of the six leads" and he's getting less development than any of them by far.

..Of course, they could always do a focus episode (in #18) for Wally right before the finale like they did for Dick last season. There's that clip of The Flash! But maybe he fails whatever and Wally has to step up! Ha, who am I kidding..Impulse has replaced Wally.

 

[Leradomi]

wait wally had a non speaking cameo in Satisfaction? going back to re-watch what in the world did I miss? That was all Aresenel/Green Arrow/Red Arrow

 

[Santino]

He and Paula were at Artemis' grave site early on.