"Young Justice: Phantoms" Season Four Talkback (Spoilers)

[DBTrilogy100]

Sorry, was really annoyed by the lack of promotion. We got a little bit on Fandome, but mostly us fans following Greg are in the know. Maybe that was a budget thing.

Anyway. glad you caught up.

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My thanks for your sympathies, it certainly is frustrating when there is a lack of promotion. You make a good point about the possibility of budget complications and when I stop to think about it, I wonder if the current state of the world might have also been a factor. In any case, knowing the release schedule for the first half of Season 4/Phantoms is great to know going forward.

 

[Frontier]

That is excellent news (well, for me). The Mars arc exposed (what for me) the weakness of the entire Martian set-up:

(1) It was a continual annoyance to me how the Martian naming conventions were essentially English with a mouthful of marbles. Once is cute, a few more are...tedious, and making an entire culture based on slurred English words became very annoying to me very quickly.

Whole lot of apostrophes .

Hopefully the LSH will extend beyond this segment of chapters; I am hoping to see them involved in something other than Darkseid - perhaps Mordru as their big bad threat, or the Legion of Super-Villains, or something else I cannot foresee.

I've seen speculation that each arc will have a Legion squad trying to prevent the timeline from changing with whatever that individual (unless there's more than one) is trying to do. Maybe attacking OG!Team members.

 

[Palin Dromos]

Before discussion shifts away from the Martian Mystery Arc, I wanted to say that I appreciated the metaphorical "trans" aspect that was worked into M'gann's character and that she and her mother came to an accepting understanding of her identity. The dialog in that scene in "Volatile" is very clearly patterned after discussions in the trans community.
Especially in the midst of all the alien racism discussions, inter-sectional acknowledgement is important too.
And it's one more example of inclusivity in the YJ storytelling.

 

[Frontier]

Before discussion shifts away from the Martian Mystery Arc, I wanted to say that I appreciated the metaphorical "trans" aspect that was worked into M'gann's character and that she and her mother came to an accepting understanding of her identity. The dialog in that scene in "Volatile" is very clearly patterned after discussions in the trans community.
Especially in the midst of all the alien racism discussions, inter-sectional acknowledgement is important too.
And it's one more example of inclusivity in the YJ storytelling.

I guess it's kind of been an interesting development for M'Gann to find her "true" form, since she's gone from rejecting her White Martian side, to trying to be a Green Martian, to posing as a human, to trying to be more White Martian again (which was probably the main purpose of her season 3 look) to her halfway look now that hearkens more to season 1 (especially the hair).

At first it came off to me like M'Gann was still ashamed of her Martian form, which is what her sister seemed to be getting at, but instead it turned out that wasn't the "real" her anymore.

 

[Mostezli]

I've seen speculation that each arc will have a Legion squad trying to prevent the timeline from changing with whatever that individual (unless there's more than one) is trying to do.

The absolute irony in that they said this incident won't have much affect on the timeline when they seemingly killed off Superboy. Guess there is Clark & Lois's son to wind up there some day.

 

[Yojimbo]

The absolute irony in that they said this incident won't have much affect on the timeline when they seemingly killed off Superboy. Guess there is Clark & Lois's son to wind up there some day.

I agree because I think the saboteur is Superboy from the future and he'll rejoin the present timeline. The Legionnaires didn't seem to know Superboy was going to be "killed" that day so future Superboy staying there wouldn't affect the timeline? Shrug. Plus, there's still the question of what "the big event" they alluded to that they could interfere in.

 

[Marvelman02]

Hopefully the LSH will extend beyond this segment of chapters; I am hoping to see them involved in something other than Darkseid - perhaps Mordru as their big bad threat, or the Legion of Super-Villains, or something else I cannot foresee.

It wouldn't surprise me if the series as a whole culminated in a season set in 31st century covering the Great Darkness Saga (or, at least, Greg & Brandon's version of it).

 

[Yojimbo]

Thursday, November 4, 2021 - "#77 Tale of Two Sisters"
Artemis Crock's life is interrupted by devastating news - just as multiple Shadows fall across her path.

External Link
HBO Max page

 

[Medinnus]

​

Thursday, November 4, 2021 - "#77 Tale of Two Sisters"
Artemis Crock's life is interrupted by devastating news - just as multiple Shadows fall across her path.

Now that's what I am talking about - wheels within wheels, the Extended Arrow family kicking butt, sisters (does anyone else have a crush on Cheshire? No? Just me?), even an appearance by Nightwing and Aquaman (even if far too short).

It seems to me that the Team is becoming the "Reform School for Deadly Women from the League of Shadows".

Is it next Thursday yet?

 

[honorableninja]

Artemis is a professor now? wow very impressive.

also like that we got a before and after to the Artemis/jade flashback scene we seen once or twice but it quite jarring to be reminding of this sportmaster after watching stargirl nicer take on the character.

 

[Yojimbo]

Artemis Crock has finally moved on with her life and is at the top of her game: teaching literature at a university (the occasionally referenced Royal University maybe?), dating, leading the Team but that all came crashing down when she learns about the death of Connor Kent. I did like how it wasn't all dour, and that it spurred her on to make one more push to help the "one person beyond help," Jade. Jade, however, seeks death rather than life and heads to Infinity Island to confront the man who put a contract on her life for betraying the League of Shadows, Sensei. Things get more complicated when Tigress has to deal with two defectors from the League and sticking to her ideology and giving both the benefit of the doubt.

In a brilliant but perhaps not coincidental move, the next story arc centers on Tigress. And Tigress happens to be someone who can empathize with Miss Martian's plight on Mars: losing the love of her life and being part of a dysfunctional family. Also as someone who has gone through the trauma and gained some sense of closure last season, Artemis is the perfect audience surrogate to process the apparent and untimely death of Connor. I guess that's progress that she only took a month of going numb, upon deciding what to do next: it's time to try and redeem Jade and make the family truly whole. Figures at the same time, Jade would be barreling towards a certain death. As the title of the episode implies, a "Tale of Two Sisters" and the next couple episodes looks to test the limits of both Artemis and Jade, one in the light and one in the darkness. Though instead of a city, it appears it is a family that stands to go through a resurrection or renewal of sorts.

The episode succinctly revisits the childhood flashback seen in season one's "Homefront" and expands on it, finally showing us what was the straw that broke the camel's back. Jade stood up to Crusher Crock on Artemis's behalf only to be beat up. Jade internalizes Crusher's words and from that point, lives by the credo of only looking out for herself. However, in the present, man. Cheshire has been shown as a fairly dangers opponent but Sensei easily defeats her. Then to put more salt in the wound, Talia al Ghul calls her out for abandoning Lian even! But of course, the writer gave the comic book fans something to giggle at: Talia claims she would never give up her son Damian. Then it becomes very obvious Jade isn't so willing to die and runs off when she gets a message that Lian is in trouble. Ever the gracious host, Sensei leaves an open invitation for her to return when she's ready to live. Guess we'll be seeing what Jade chooses: Infinity Island, Star City, continuing to leave where the wind takes her, or... killed off.

The episodes also treats us to a bit of an Arrow Family focus starting with Arrowette and Arsenal getting the drop of defector #1, Onyx (so cool to finally see Jerome Moore get his character on the show after mentioning it over 8 years ago). For one, it's a sight for sore eyes for Arrowette to finally get more development. Also, it was wicked cool to see she's using that optical User Interface introduced last season, that's really similar to Spyral's Hypnos 2.0 spy tech in the comics, to select her trick arrows. And of course, Roy with his arsenal of weapons and wise cracks. The banter between Will and Roy Harper was really on point and entertaining. Roy making fun of another mole arc only to get elbowed by Will! The banter and callbacks were the one shining light of humor in an otherwise serious and dreary point in time for the heroes. It was also a pleasant bonus to have Terra, Spoiler, and Orphan along, too. Spoiler and Orphan could also easily use more spotlight and development as well. Plus in a blink and miss moment in the cold open, it appears one more of the rescued meta-teens chose the hero life and Mist is now a member of the Team.

Then we have the literal embodiment of game theory with Onyx and Cassandra both claiming to be defectors from the League of Shadows come seeking sanctuary from the Team. And while the Team has become the poster child for reforming lady shadows and an ambush by the League does little to sway opinion, everyone but Tigress and sort of Arrowette automatically finds it fishy. Onyx claims Cassandra is playing a role in a plot hatched with Lady Shiva to implant herself on the Team as a mole. Cassandra claims Onyx was sent by the League to sabotage her efforts to break free from her father, something Tigress and Spoiler are all too familiar with. However, Terra knows Onyx lacked the killer drive to be totally ruthless and Cassandra is a diehard loyalist of her father. We've seen the latter in "Evolution" last season but we also saw what she saw, Vandal Savage killing her sister Olympia over her senility. So should the audience believe Cassandra because of that more than believing the new character we hardly know? Or are they both liars and this is all a big smoke screen so the League or the Light can pull off an operation in Star City undetected? I'm sure Orphan's idea is to just chop both their heads off...

After the events of "Involuntary," suffice to say it is no surprise that the new arc begins on a downer but still leaves viewers intrigued with a lot of burning questions: Can Jade Ngyuen be redeemed? Can Onyx or Cassandra be trusted? Will Artemis be forced to break the rules? Why does Will put the cup of orange juice in the same place every morning?

 

[Frontier]

Did you miss the slideshows folks? Well, here they are in full force .

So Mist joined The Team? While Livewire is on the Outsiders? YJ really redeeming female villains, it seems .

Artemis as a teacher reminded me a lot of Helena Bertinelli/Huntress, who also uses a crossbow. I wonder if that's a complete coincidence .

Artemis is dating a new guy! Some rando, it seems. I'm just going to call him random guy...will there be anything to this other than physical representation of Artemis trying to move on? Will he turn out to be somebody in the comics? Or get resigned to an eventual off-screen breakup ?

Did Lian deliberately knock the glass over that time thinking Artemis would still catch it .

Welp, it was nice to see Dick and Kaldur, even if they're the bearer of bad news that Conner's "dead," which messes with Artemis because it dredges up her grief over Wally and makes her committed not to lose anyone again, even if it means forcing her sister to come back .

We finally see the Sportsmaster training sessions he subjected his daughters too, which aren't pretty, especially when she had Cheshire sporting sais even as a little girl and he attacked them too. Is it any wonder Jade was calling him "Crusher" back then .

Cheshire gets her butt handed to her by Sensei and it seems like Jade's either really off her game or just ready to be done with life...although if the LoS are playing in shades of grey, what are they even really doing right now ?

Little Damian! He looks adorable! And like a mini-version of his DC Animated Movie self! He even has the upright hair! He looks so sweet, but knowing him that's not going to last .

Red Hood....I mean, Red Hood Nina? I mean, Jason Todd...he's still there? Has Jason woken up or is he there willingly? Will this factor into Dick's arc ?

Zehra Fazal reprises Talia, because of course she does, and it was kind of hilarious to see Cheshire and Talia debate who is the better mother and criticizing each other's parenting choices .

I love how Artemis drives a green car. Like, whether it's a Green Arrow reference or a reference to her old colors, it's perfect .

This is probably the most Arrow Family action we've seen since...I guess the Bow Hunter Security episode? We've got Artemis, Roy, Will, and Cissie/Arrowette. Is Cissie Ollie's current sidekick? There's a lot about her circumstances we don't really know. It seems like she's supposed to be like a dual Speedy/Artemis legacy since she's like Artemis physically and maybe emotionally (just less cynical) and wears Speedy's red and black colors. Where does Bonnie King factor in? I did think it was really cool how she apparently has eye contacts that let her select whichever arrow she wants to fire .

We meet Onyx, a LoS member here, and you probably shouldn't get attached to her hair knowing she's more commonly a bald woman in the comics .

Yeah, I have a hard time buying this Cassandra Savage story either. With her loyalty to her father and how she reacted to Olympia's death, it doesn't really track, and it seems like she's preying on Artemis' insecurities regarding sisters and father figures to worm her way in by relating to her. It really is just too convenient, although we've got two dangerous women trying to play themselves off as defectors so it's hard to know who to really trust .

How dangerous is Killer Croc in this universe that The Light/Slade would want to recruit him and he might've done all that damage to someone as skilled as we are to assume Cassandra Savage is? Like, jeez, if it was him he really roughed her up. Has Batman even beaten him in this universe ?

Those Harper Brothers sure know how to get a rise out of each other .

Never get in the way of a man and his clipboard...especially Will Harper's clipboard .

Spoiler finally mentions Cluemaster! Nice .

Cass is apparently former League of Shadows in this continuity. How does that track with her parents, David Cain and Shiva, and how she eventually left them? Do they know Shiva is her mother? And she's still silent, so can she speak at all? Is she not even mono-syllabic like early Cass used to be? I almost wonder if they're waiting for Shiva to show up for Cass to finally speak, maybe with Gwendoline Yeo playing mother and daughter...

Jade has a habit of abandoning people. She abandoned Artemis, basically abandoned her family, and then she abandoned Lian, although she's always one call away if she thinks Lian is in danger, which Artemis uses to her advantage to get her to finally show up again .

I'm sure Orphan's idea is to just chop both their heads off...

Man, that would be a pretty hardcore Cassandra Cain...

 

[the greenman]

Well, certainly not a bad ep. Some focus on Artemis still messed up over Wally, now this. Her being teacher is interesting to see with the comparison of her flashbacks being trained by her Dad.

The Batman Inc./Arrow crew showing up. I think our member @Harlequinn called "Scandal" being set up and defecting from her Dad. Well. . . maybe.

Loved the after credits tag. Hope they do this with every ep in this Reading Rainbow arc.

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[Yojimbo]

The Batman Inc./Arrow crew showing up. I think our member @Harlequinn called "Scandal" being set up and defecting from her Dad. Well. . . maybe.

More like a joint Team-Outsider-Bowhunters operation since Batman agreed to dissolve his Z-team at the end of last season. Though mostly Team operation, lol. Since there's one Outsider and one Bowhunters Security present.

Loved the after credits tag. Hope they do this with every ep in this Reading Rainbow arc.

Presumably since each episode is a run on a classic book title.

Spoiler

Next week is a nod to Through the Looking-Glass, the sequel to Alice's Adventures in Wonderland which delved into mirror opposites/running backwards. Then the one after a nod to The Lady, or the Tiger? which centered around an unsolvable problem. And lastly I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings which was about strength of character and using one's love of literature to overcome trauma. So you can definitely see the connections to the story and Artemis.

 

[Frontier]

It is kind of funny to me that, other than Terra, this is pretty much just the Batfamily and Arrow Family working together.

I do kind of wonder how Ollie is doing and whether he's still a little bitter about what the Batman Inc. nonsense cost him...

 

[M.O.D.O.K.]

Great episode. I wasn't as down on the Mars arc as many, but I do like Artemis as a protagonist more and this supporting cast in general is more interesting to me. Also, I'm an English nerd, so I was happy to see Artemis working on the same field I am.

I'm still not happy with Talia's redesign. She had a perfectly good one in the tie-in comics. I hope the reuse of DC animated movie assets is less obvious this season.

I did a double take when Onyx said Scandal (I'm calling her that since the show basically confirmed it and to differentiate from Cassandra Cain) lost her arm from trying to recruit Killer Croc. Not just confirmation he's around, but that he's a potential LoS recruit. I mean, Clayface also used to be LoS in this continuity. A shame we didn't get a cameo by Harlan Matthews.

I do kind of wonder how Ollie is doing and whether he's still a little bitter about what the Batman Inc. nonsense cost him...

I completely forgot Ollie is probably still in the dog house for that.

 

[Frontier]

I'm still not happy with Talia's redesign. She had a perfectly good one in the tie-in comics. I hope the reuse of DC animated movie assets is less obvious this season.

I don't think Bourassa is directly involved this season as a character designer so there might be less reused designs, although Damian looks like a young version of his DCAMU design. Anyone who misses the DC Animated films will probably appreciate still seeing those around .

I did a double take when Onyx said Scandal (I'm calling her that since the show basically confirmed it and to differentiate from Cassandra Cain) lost her arm from trying to recruit Killer Croc. Not just confirmation he's around, but that he's a potential LoS recruit. I mean, Clayface also used to be LoS in this continuity. A shame we didn't get a cameo by Harlan Matthews.

All we needed was Wonder Girl and we'd have all the major Cassandra's in one scene .

What stood out to me the most is not only is he seen as a viable LoS candidate but that he's so dangerous that he could believably have done all that damage to Savage.

 

[Lord Sidious]

Yes to Episode 5!!

I’m thinking Superboy is really not dead …well hopefully.

I know people would rather have more Martians and more episodes of their soap opera Martian lives BUT this is the YJ I signed up for.

 

[ShadowStar]

Yes to Episode 5!!

I’m thinking Superboy is really not dead …well hopefully.

I know people would rather have more Martians and more episodes of their soap opera Martian lives BUT this is the YJ I signed up for.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that I want "more" episodes set exclusively on Mars, but I'm very happy that we had a few episodes set on that planet at last. It bothered me a little bit that Mars would be talked about but never shown in the earlier episodes, and the brief exchange between Lucas and M'gann in "Secrets" (when he says that Martians aren't hostile and she says "Of course not" but has a peculiar look on her face) made me wonder what was troubling her so much. Obviously we've had some clues as time has gone on -- most notably M'gann's struggle with her image in season 1 and M'comm's debut in season 3. But it felt to me as though Weisman and Vietti were holding off on showing us Mars (when the same could not be said for Atlantis) and I'm so happy that it has been shown at last! For those who think that setting four episodes on that planet was a bit OTT, I would argue that we aren't likely to see this planet again very much in the future (even if there are more seasons) because it's so far away from Earth. And with the trouble that they're having in establishing contact between Earth and Mars, I would guess that we don't really have a shot at seeing as many stories on Mars as we do of seeing stories set in Gotham City, Star City, Atlantis etc. So good for Weisman and Vietti that they had a good reason to "bring YJ to Mars", as it were -- for Conner and M'gann's planned nuptials. I can understand that this would feel like a rocky start to the season for those who dislike all the complicated Martian names and terms etc. But we're back in more familiar territory with episode five, so I hope that the first four episodes can be appreciated more for what they were as we move forward through this season. Not to mention that the Mars episodes will no doubt prove to be very important down the line for what may be the set-up for the United Planets, if we ever get that far in the YJ universe timeline.

As for episode five, I loved it! I hope that the Tigress/Cheshire arc will continue to impress as much as its first episode. I also hope that we aren't done with the Infinity Island characters, as I would really like to know precisely why Ra's has basically gone into hiding. There has to be more to it than his sudden epiphany that there many shades of gray in the world.

 

[Frontier]

I only just realized after that Cheshire/Talia debate about who is a better mother that this arc will probably confirm Shiva is Cass's mother...so I guess she'll take the cake as worse mother .