Batman Adventures #16 Talkback (Spoilers)

[Robin]

The Ivy Clone was substituted whenever you want her to be, but in my mind, it was somewhere between the last issue of Gotham Adventures and the first issue of the New Batman Adventures. (The Harley /Ivy mini is therefore, "safe" and is STILL about the original Ivy, since it was written and drawn years ago.)

Not a bad explaination. I was wondering that myself. I actually liked the idea that Ivy has been a fake since "House & Garden." That would explain her revamped look and some of the new abilities she gained in TNBA that she didnot have in BTAS like that phermone dust. Still it would make all the Ivy stories since a waste. Like everyone else, I guess we can chock it up to the time gap between the last comic and this one. I really wish we got more stories taking place betwene issue #60 and #1 of this book.

 

[charles At NC]

Well Its the end of a era,they will never be a another pair like harley and ivy


I allways hoped we could see more of these two ,but it looks like that won't be the case

as for plantclone ivy I have aways felt that Batman Adventures was not necssary canonical to BTAS\TBSA,its just could have happend that way

oh well

brokenhearted in NC

 

[punkrockgirl]

The Ivy Clone was substituted whenever you want her to be, but in my mind, it was somewhere between the last issue of Gotham Adventures and the first issue of the New Batman Adventures.

Ah, that's cool. That way it doesn't retcon the TNBA stuff (unless you wanna read it that way).

I'm not too fond of the super-powered Ivy BTW. In the old days it was *almost* feasable that a person like Poison Ivy could exist (psychotic, plant obsessed eco-terrorist, who was experimented on with chemicals which made her blood immune to poisons and gave her a certain toxicity). But the plant controlling supervillain, who can make trees move and obey her is just way too overboard for my tastes. I know it makes her more formidable or whatever, but its kinda cheesy IMO. Then again, Batman deals with a couple of super-powered type characters like Man-Bat and Clayface so I suppose its not too far a cry from those guys. I just prefer Batman's world more grounded in some vague reality. The Batman villains with severe psychological problems and strange, shadowy deformities are more compelling, IMO, than the ones who can just solve their dilemmas by using handy dandy super powers to make things go their way. This is getting way off-topic so I'll stop now!

PunkRockGirl

 

[James]

The Ivy Clone was substituted whenever you want her to be, but in my mind, it was somewhere between the last issue of Gotham Adventures and the first issue of the New Batman Adventures. (The Harley /Ivy mini is therefore, "safe" and is STILL about the original Ivy, since it was written and drawn years ago.)

I had in mind that it was not the real Ivy back in Batman Adventures (vol2), issue one, when she's stabbed in Arkham and survives it. That was the point of the stabbing scene.

Well that clears up the debate I had with Bird Boy on this. Interesting. I totally missed that, but then I missed that issue. Pity I love little foreshadowing like that.

I did think it was meant to be a clone since House And Garden since visually Ivy looked so BTAS and followed the characterisation from that episode.. but nevertheless, I prefer this.. keeps the impact and doesn't overshadow the old stories too much...

Great work.

 

[PaQ]

I finally got a chance to read this issue this morning, and wow, another solid one. I liked how Harley was playing the Joker just for the chance that he'd marry her, and Joker's line about he should've had Batman be his best man was great.

Harley looked real upset at Ivy after everything fell apart, and that twist at the end with the Ivy clone, my mind just got blown by all the twists and turns.. Fantastic issue, made me think a lot. It's sad there's only one more issue left to go.

 

[DisneyBoy]

Don't really have time to say everything I want to say...but

WOAH!!!

That last page really got me thinking I especially enjoy the fact that it's a bit open-ended. The way I see it, we really have no way of knowing if Alec witnessed the death of the "fake" Ivy while living with the real one...or if the "fake" is the version he's now living with, and it was the REAL Ivy who came pleading to his door....

....hmmmmmm.

 

[Robin]

That last page really got me thinking I especially enjoy the fact that it's a bit open-ended. The way I see it, we really have no way of knowing if Alec witnessed the death of the "fake" Ivy while living with the real one...or if the "fake" is the version he's now living with, and it was the REAL Ivy who came pleading to his door....

Since I doubt a fake Ivy would regress into a normal human looking form, it's safe to say the more plant-like version is obviously Isley.

 

[Love4ever]

This hole thing about the TNBA Ivy not being the BTAS Ivy is SOOOO SHOCKING!!!! This story line has alot of Explaining to do then just the real BTAS Ivy just showing up and explianing why she was in hiding for so long in my opinun. THIS PLOT LINE IS OUT OF CONTROL AND NEEDS MORE EXPLIANING TO DO!!!

Anyway, it was a great & some what sad issue at the same time.

 

[punkrockgirl]

Love4ever, read the earlier posts in this thread by ty Templeton and you'll get your answers.

I don't know if Dan and Ty are keeping up with this thread, but if you are, I was wondering if you two had anything to do with this upcoming storyline in the mainstream Bat-comics...

" Judd Winick will take over writing duties of Batman after War Games (and he will still remain on Green Arrow and Outsiders). His first story arc will be titled “Under the Hood,” which introduces a newly formatted Red Hood character (long time readers will remember that The Joker was the Red Hood before suffering the toxic waste damage that disfigured and transformed him into the lunatic he recognize today). The Red Hood will wreck havoc and his identity, which will be revealed at the end of the story arc, will surprise readers, Winick promised."

This sounds suspiciously like the Red Hood mystery Dan and Ty introduced in the pages of Batman Adventures. Hmm....

PunkRockGirl

 

[Ty the Guy]

Yeah, I saw that storyline coming up. It amused me, especially that line about actually revealing the identity of the Red Hood at the end of the story (which seems like a specific dig at our story not finishing due to the cancellation).

But...

I have no idea what's up with this story, and neither Dan nor I have anything to do with it. It's probably a case of writers working with the same set of characters eventually coming up with similar storylines. Years ago, I did a plague story in Batman Adventures about three months before the big "Contagion" storyline, (and my script even featured Ra's, just like the big twenty issue crossover). It was just a coincidence.

Stuff like this happens all the time in comics. There's only a finite number of characters to pick and choose from.

Ty the Guy.

 

[Robin]

I have no idea what's up with this story, and neither Dan nor I have anything to do with it. It's probably a case of writers working with the same set of characters eventually coming up with similar storylines. Years ago, I did a plague story in Batman Adventures about three months before the big "Contagion" storyline, (and my script even featured Ra's, just like the big twenty issue crossover). It was just a coincidence.

I remember those issues. Those were a couple of my favorite stories from that comic series you did. I like how you tied issue #9 and #10 (I think. I don't really remember 100%) together without making them an obvious two-parter. The cover art for issue #10 with Ra's Al Ghul and Talia on a mound of skulls and bones with Batman and Robin was one of my favorite covers of the book behind issue #6.

 

[shany94a]

H&I Really Over?

Both stories in BA#16 were very good - I was just wondering if Ty originally had plans to fracture the Harley-Ivy relationship all along, or did this happen because this series (and style of animation) is coming to an end? I'd hate to think they were broken up for good , but I don't see how their situation could be fixed, except in a future DCU one-shot or something.

 

[DisneyBoy]

Actually Robin, Ivy's plant creatures have always been able to appear as human as she wanted them too (much like her doppleganger in House and Garden), so I still think it's plausible that she might have created several plant versions of herself in order to evade capture. And since she's able to control them, she could easily make them think and act like herself, without ever being aware that they aren't the real Ivy.

Anyhoo, I applaud Ty for tackling a story that didn't really allow for many surprises. If that sounded like a back-handed compliment, consider the elements which were featured in the Harley and Joker lead story:

1) Betrayal: Did anyone honestly believe the Joker would marry Harley out of love? This disfunctional duo have been fan faves for years now because the ins and outs of their relationship is something we can generally predict. Even though Harley was declared mental sane and sat down to write a book a few years back, we all knew it was only a matter of time before she found her way back into the arms of her puddin'. And Joker, regardless of his ego or his independance, will always revert to form with Harley around to take the fall or simply knock around. I knew they'd never successfully wed.

2) Jealousy: The question of Harley and Ivy's relationship is one which has fueled, in part, the interest behind these two characters. So it was only natural to see Ivy step in and try and keep the wedding from going off as planned. She's never liked him, and that has never changed.

So even though I knew how the story would pan out, I still enjoyed seeing it in print. The only thing that bugged me was the use of an "inheritance" as the motivation behind the marriage. Seeing as how Harley's both published books and (according to H+I #3) directed a hugely successful film, couldn't Joker have just wanted to marry her to steal away her earnings? Then, Harley, being the smarty pants she is, could have stunned him by wasting all her savings on an elaborate wedding. I think seeing her decked-out for her marriage while the dumbfounded Joker watched on might have proved more comedic than her surprisingly simple "walk down the ilse in my costume and flowers" bit. Maybe she could have even stolen some of Ivy's mind-controlling formulas and used them to get an orchestra, celebrities and photographers to surround her. Basically, that scene was a bit of a missed opportunity, I think. What do you think of my idea Ty?

So, instead, I ended up loving this issue because of what was done with Ivy. Loved her new hair, and I especially loved the back-up.

One question remains in my head though. Penguin's line about killing Batman "no matter what the cost" a few issues back was repeated by Ivy, in reference to Joker, and then by Harley in reference to Ivy. Did you repeat those lines intentionally Ty, and if so, why? Something tells me you might have been building up to something there, but I can't quite imagine what.

Again, thanks for giving us the story we'd all pictured in our heads, and an explanation that leaves the future of this series' breakout character up to us to decide.

 

[Ty the Guy]

<<Penguin's line about killing Batman "no matter what the cost" a few issues back was repeated by Ivy, in reference to Joker, and then by Harley in reference to Ivy. Did you repeat those lines intentionally Ty, and if so, why?>>



Yup. I'm glad someone noticed. When I heard we were finishing up the run on these characters, I wanted all of them to "go out" in stories that clearly had more to resolve in their future. I intended them all to have final lines that were something like..." Next time I see you, there'll be REAL trouble!" to leave the readers with the idea that ALL of these characters' lives will continue, even if we don't get to read them or see them.

At one point, Dan and I discussed giving farewell stories to all the characters...killing them off or permanently messing with their status quo...(such as Dan's grand finale for Clayface, or a version of the Joker/ Harley issue where they ACTUALLY got married), but I wanted a different feel to send off these beloved characters....to me, they're going to always be there, always fighting Batman, always being thwarted, and always planning revenge. So Penguin, Riddler, Catwoman, Joker and Harley all got "final" stories that clearly weren't "done".

In fact, the only character to whom I was willing to make a permanent FINAL status change was Batman himself, and amazingly enough, editor Joan allowed me to write a farewell Batman script.

Check in next issue for what is arguably the biggest event in animated Batman's life.

Ty the Guy.

PS: Your wedding scenario is entertaining, but it would have involved a) explaining that Harley had money saved up from other stories that would require "recapping" b) explaining why someone who is non compus mentus was allowed access to her money and c) would have involved no manipulation on Harley's part towards Joker. (A big part of my story was that Harley and Joker were both planning a double cross on each other. Your version eliminates that essential ingredient.)

Besides, there's only seventeen pages, so the less complex an ending, the better. The bit with the uncancelled stamp, explaining Harley's sneaky plan, took only two panels to explain.

(Look at all the "quotes" around words. I've obviously been reading some "Kirby" comics "lately".)

Again Ty the Guy.

 

[DisneyBoy]

Now there's food for thought.

I'm more of the type of person who prefers giving and getting closure than leaving on an uncertain note. In fact, since I've avoided the synopsis for the final issue like my life depended on it, I was beginning to think that somehow Penguin, Harley and Ivy were ALL going to carry out their threats. I must admit, the "I'll get you" line sounded a bit corny to me, especially when repeated, but now that I know why you wrote them in, I appreciate them more. There's no denying that "I'm ending the Harley and Ivy partnership forever!" has a dramatic ring to it.

As for my idea of the wedding, you're right about the confines that go along with only having 17 pages, but I'll fight you on the "manipulation" angle Harley's smart enough to know that Joker wouldn't ever really marry her (seeing as how she hated it when he was being genuinely affectionate towards her in issue #3), and would have guessed from the start that he was only going to marry her for her money (after intentionally informing him of her amassed wealth via the letters strewn around her cell). Her double-cross would then have been spending all her cash on the elaborate wedding, only to inform him that there's nothing left once they tied the knot. Chances are though, he would have figured out her scheme before she managed to get down the isle in her custom-made dress...diamond-encrusted, of course.

I'm curious Ty - where were you ultimately hoping to end with these characters, if the series wasn't coming to an end? I know Dan mentionned plans for a Red Hood/Joker showdown, and you hoped to wink at Return of the Joker's continuity by having Tim survive an encounter at Arkham, but what about Catwoman, Riddler and Penguin? Has your intention always been to leave them in a position where they would continue on as they always have? Or do you secretly wish Harley and her puddin' could have settled down? Who would you have killed off, if anyone? What other significant twists would you have thrown in down the line? I can imagine plenty of scenarios in my head, but I'm much more curious to know what the 'end of the line' looked like to you if this series had lived on indefinately. What if Batman Adventures outlived JLU as the last surviving part of the DCAU? Would you have integrated whatever conclusions Timm and his group had in store for the characters into your title, or followed in their footsteps and avoided being "tied to their continuity". Did you even plan to stay with BA until the bitter end, if you could?

I ask a lot of questions.

 

[shany94a]

I'm just happy the green-skinned Poison Ivy wasn't necessarily invalidated - wait, that sounds kinda ... dirty ...

 

[Pyro]

Great issue. A lot of people seem worried about the "I'm ending the Harley/Ivy relationship forever!" comment. When I read it I thought, "Wow, she's mad, but in the end she'll probably do something like 'Aw Red, I could never stay mad at you.'" And everyone will be happy. Harley does have mood swings quite often.

About the duplicate Ivy, I want to believe that its BTAS Ivy fresh from House & Garden. But I don't want to believe that everything since then has been a phony. I guess I'll take Ty's explanation, but it would have been better if she had been drawn in the TNBA style only more human. Maybe I'll pretend it was a drawing mistake.

 

[shany94a]

Long Live Ivy (and Harley)

About the duplicate Ivy, I want to believe that its BTAS Ivy fresh from House & Garden. But I don't want to believe that everything since then has been a phony. I guess I'll take Ty's explanation, but it would have been better if she had been drawn in the TNBA style only more human. Maybe I'll pretend it was a drawing mistake.

The "human" Ivy was actually drawn in a more TNBA-style in the Gotham Girls 2002 mini-series. There was a flashback scene to her engagement with Harvey Dent, where she poisoned Dent and nearly killed him, and Ivy looked much more like the white/green Ivy of the later animated Batman episodes. I think she even had brown hair instead of red. I would have liked it better myself if she had been shown this way in "The Flower Girl", but they only had four pages to work with, and readers might not have recognized her as easily as they would the BTAS Ivy.

And you're right about Harley, she DOES have her mood swings. One day she loves Joker, the next she hates him, and she's probably the same way with Ivy, too. I can't see her staying mad at her best friend, either.

 

[Pyro]

The "human" Ivy was actually drawn in a more TNBA-style in the Gotham Girls 2002 mini-series. There was a flashback scene to her engagement with Harvey Dent, where she poisoned Dent and nearly killed him, and Ivy looked much more like the white/green Ivy of the later animated Batman episodes. I think she even had brown hair instead of red. I would have liked it better myself if she had been shown this way in "The Flower Girl", but they only had four pages to work with, and readers might not have recognized her as easily as they would the BTAS Ivy.

You know, I may have that Gotham Girls issue. I'm going to have to go look for it.

 

[shany94a]

Issue #2

I'm pretty sure it was the second issue of Gotham Girls, with Poison Ivy on the cover. The story was called "Ivy League", and shows the Isley-Dent flashback within the first few pages or so.