Marvel's Avengers Assemble "The Avengers Protocol, Parts 1 - 2" Series Premiere Talkback (Spoilers)

[suss2it]

Avengers: EMH didn't even have that many female characters either. They really only had 2 females join the team and 1 minority. So I wouldn't give EMH any points over AA in regards to diversity.

Plus I don't really see how Black Widow is a Mary Sue. Being an awesome fighter, agile badass is part of who she is, and she's not really a character that lends herself to much humor, unlike a guy like Clint. And yeah he's not as agile/graceful as Widow, but so what? Lets see Widow take the kind of shots Hawkeye regularly lands.

And if Widow's been a Mary Sue so far than Captain America's been a Gary Stu because he hasn't been portrayed any less "perfect" than she has so far.

 

[Rick Jones]

Avengers: EMH didn't even have that many female characters either. They really only had 2 females join the team and 1 minority. So I wouldn't give EMH any points over AA in regards to diversity.

There were only two official female Avengers but I don't think EMH was at a great loss for female characters in some capacity (supporting roles, villains, double agents, whatever). USM is probably coloring what people are expecting here as well (only about five female characters with any kind of lines?) but it's still too early to judge what will be done here as yet.

 

[Dsneybuf]

Does it sound feeble to hope this episode will become available to stream on Marvel's website soon? These comments confirmed some of my worst fears about the show, but I still feel like watching for the right to proclaim that I've seen at least one episode from each Avengers cartoon.

 

[TheMadSlasher]

Plus I don't really see how Black Widow is a Mary Sue. Being an awesome fighter, agile badass is part of who she is, and she's not really a character that lends herself to much humor, unlike a guy like Clint. And yeah he's not as agile/graceful as Widow, but so what? Lets see Widow take the kind of shots Hawkeye regularly lands.

Being an awesome fighter and a BAMF is NOT what makes someone a Mary Sue.

But Clint IS extremely agile and graceful. Remember that in 616, Clint has extensive acrobatics training from being in the circus. Now this may not apply to AA, granted, although AEMH had Clint's agility being very regularly displayed. So there is precedent in other canons for Clint being extremely agile (this isn't conclusive proof but it has some evidential worth). And look at the Avengers film - Clint is extremely agile there.

But, like I said, the problem is simple: Hulk threw BOTH Clint and Natasha into the air. Nat lands gracefully, Clint does not and ends up as the butt of every joke. Natasha is being portrayed far more favorably by the script... she's aloof and not even on the team (thus being essentially a living plot device to Save The Boys when they're all in trouble). She's the whole embodiment of the "levelheaded woman who needs to be there to stop The Boys from being killed" trope.

So she's portrayed as aloof from the team, saving them all, looking down on them, consistently perfect and absolutely awesome with no flaws etc. etc.

And the script humiliates Clint in order to make Natasha look cooler.

This is pretty much archetypal Mary Sue. If Black Widow didn't exist and was written into a fanfic as an Original Female Character, she'd be called a Mary Sue without a single second of hesitation.

And if Widow's been a Mary Sue so far than Captain America's been a Gary Stu because he hasn't been portrayed any less "perfect" than she has so far.

I agree that in many other canons, Captain America gets the Gary Stu treatment, and I hate when Cap is Stu'd. But so far, Cap has NOT been portrayed as a living plot device that always pulls the other team out of danger, he doesn't live apart from the other guys, he doesn't seem to hold them all in contempt, etc.

So, in AA so far, Cap has been much less of a Stu than Widow has been a Sue.

 

[spyke]

I'm very curious to see how this sneak peak did in the ratings. IMO, I thought that both episodes were pretty bad.

 

[Rick Jones]

Were any of the statues at the mansion supposed to be recognizable?

But Clint IS extremely agile and graceful. Remember that in 616, Clint has extensive acrobatics training from being in the circus. Now this may not apply to AA, granted, although AEMH had Clint's agility being very regularly displayed. So there is precedent in other canons for Clint being extremely agile (this isn't conclusive proof but it has some evidential worth). And look at the Avengers film - Clint is extremely agile there.

His intro on the show includes shooting a picture of Tony while in the middle of a flip so I think the same rules of agility may apply.

On another note, I never got around to stating that I think it's pretty cool Dynamic Music Partners are doing the music. I half expected to hear the same poppy punk stuff Manthei does on USM.

 

[TheMadSlasher]

His intro on the show includes shooting a picture of Tony while in the middle of a flip so I think the same rules of agility may apply.

Thanks for that reminder. I appreciate it.

So yeah, Clint's extraordinary agility is established in the show. And then for some reason he constantly ends up falling down and being clumsy while Black Widow never has a single problem even when she's thrown by the Hulk.

It seems like Clint's agility is see-sawing like Tony's intelligence. Again, the show needs to be CONSISTENT.

Still, I think Rick's reminder serves as yet more evidence that Widow is getting the Mary Sue treatment. This is NOT a good thing.

 

[macattack]

Were any of the statues at the mansion supposed to be recognizable?

His intro on the show includes shooting a picture of Tony while in the middle of a flip so I think the same rules of agility may apply.

On another note, I never got around to stating that I think it's pretty cool Dynamic Music Partners are doing the music. I half expected to hear the same poppy punk stuff Manthei does on USM.

I couldn't recognize any of the statues. I'm going to try to watch the episode again to see if I can identify any.

As the MadSlasher states, the problem then is consistency. Clint is getting his ass kicked a LOT on this show but then they throw a bone by having Clint do something impressive but not in a very meaningful capacity. Rule Of Funny can only go so far.

And if it's to prop Natasha up while tearing Clint down, that just makes the Mary Sue factor even stronger. We'll see what happens in subsequent episodes but if what happens in the pilot stays consistent, Widow's a Sue.

I will admit, Dynamic Music Partners does make for a better and more fitting soundtrack than the pop stuff Manthei likely would've done. It doesn't stand out that much but it supports well.

 

[suss2it]

Thanks for that reminder. I appreciate it.

So yeah, Clint's extraordinary agility is established in the show. And then for some reason he constantly ends up falling down and being clumsy while Black Widow never has a single problem even when she's thrown by the Hulk.

It seems like Clint's agility is see-sawing like Tony's intelligence. Again, the show needs to be CONSISTENT.

Still, I think Rick's reminder serves as yet more evidence that Widow is getting the Mary Sue treatment. This is NOT a good thing.

I couldn't recognize any of the statues. I'm going to try to watch the episode again to see if I can identify any.

As the MadSlasher states, the problem then is consistency. Clint is getting his ass kicked a LOT on this show but then they throw a bone by having Clint do something impressive but not in a very meaningful capacity. Rule Of Funny can only go so far.

And if it's to prop Natasha up while tearing Clint down, that just makes the Mary Sue factor even stronger. We'll see what happens in subsequent episodes but if what happens in the pilot stays consistent, Widow's a Sue.

I will admit, Dynamic Music Partners does make for a better and more fitting soundtrack than the pop stuff Manthei likely would've done. It doesn't stand out that much but it supports well.

Maybe I gotta watch these episodes again, but you guys seem to be exaggerating how much Clint got his ass kicked or fell. Right now I can only think of the time Hulk threw him and Widow and when Hulk flicked him away. As for Widow, she's just been shown to be competent so I don't think that automatically makes her a Mary Sue, especially since we've had a grand total of two episodes so far. Not to mention not every character lends themselves to a comic relief role like Hawkeye or Spider-Man.

 

[TheMadSlasher]

Maybe I gotta watch these episodes again, but you guys seem to be exaggerating how much Clint got his ass kicked or fell. Right now I can only think of the time Hulk threw him and Widow and when Hulk flicked him away.

The issue is one of disproportion rather than frequency, as well as unjustifiable differential treatment that flies in the face of past characterization. Clint has been established as extraordinarily agile in several action sequences, yet falls down from the SAME throw that Hulk gave to both himself and Widow.

As for Widow, she's just been shown to be competent so I don't think that automatically makes her a Mary Sue, especially since we've had a grand total of two episodes so far.

Being shown as competent ISN'T something that makes a Mary Sue, I absolutely agree.

Being consistently shown as MORE competent than pretty much everyone else, always being the one to save the team, acting all aloof from and contemptuous of the team, and the script making OTHER team-members out to be incompetent in defiance of previously-established characterization IS what makes Widow a Mary Sue. Its not a matter of being portrayed well, but about being portrayed unreasonably/unjustifiably more favorably than the others.

Not to mention not every character lends themselves to a comic relief role like Hawkeye or Spider-Man.

Comic relief doesn't require that the character have his competence demeaned, and him getting humiliated repeatedly.

 

[Pacman7821]

I thought it was just..ok. So, I'll have to see more episodes.

 

[suss2it]

The issue is one of disproportion rather than frequency, as well as unjustifiable differential treatment that flies in the face of past characterization. Clint has been established as extraordinarily agile in several action sequences, yet falls down from the SAME throw that Hulk gave to both himself and Widow.

Hawkeye can be agile, Widow's just more agile. Same way Thor is strong, but Hulk is stronger. That doesn't make Hulk a Gary Stu does it?

Being consistently shown as MORE competent than pretty much everyone else, always being the one to save the team, acting all aloof from and contemptuous of the team, and the script making OTHER team-members out to be incompetent in defiance of previously-established characterization IS what makes Widow a Mary Sue. Its not a matter of being portrayed well, but about being portrayed unreasonably/unjustifiably more favorably than the others.

In the two episodes we've seen so far, Widow was far from the only one saving the team. And who exactly was made to look incompetent to Widow's benefit? Unless you're talking about Widow landing more gracefully than Hawkeye?

Comic relief doesn't require that the character have his competence demeaned, and him getting humiliated repeatedly.

This seems like a huge exaggeration. When was his competence actually 'demeaned'? And I'd hardly call Hulk's flicking gag humiliating. It's not like the team stopped what they were doing and just pointed and laughed at him for 5 minutes straight. Besides so far Clint's been getting the best one-liners.

 

[TheMadSlasher]

Hawkeye can be agile, Widow's just more agile. Same way Thor is strong, but Hulk is stronger. That doesn't make Hulk a Gary Stu does it?

Given what we had seen by that point, Clint's agility was already very well established and completely sufficient to land gracefully from the throw (or at the very least, that's a reasonable expectation). We ARE talking about someone that in multiple canons is extraordinarily agile (honestly, the agility difference between Clint and Natasha is quite small).

In the two episodes we've seen so far, Widow was far from the only one saving the team. And who exactly was made to look incompetent to Widow's benefit? Unless you're talking about Widow landing more gracefully than Hawkeye?

She was always the 'outside element' who wasn't-really-on-the-team-but-joins-in-when-she-wants and each time she shows up, she saves the team. Sure, the main five characters save themselves, but each time Widow shows up, she saves them. Always. You're right that we've only seen two episodes so far, but please note that fictional tropes do exist (for instance, Hawkeye getting the "Michaelangelo treatment" or basically being the snarky complainer who ends up the butt of every joke... this is a pattern repeated in so many different television shows and films that we can make a reasonable inference that the trope is being adhered to). We're making inferences from what we've seen before that Widow is getting the Mary Sue treatment on the grounds of Affirmative Action (i.e. she's the only woman so she can't be shown as having flaws otherwise Tumblr's SJW cohort will all get up in arms over apparent sexism). Not only that but, as was mentioned above, MoA have done depictions like this (the super-competent woman who is necessary to save the bumbling-fool men) before in their other works.

This seems like a huge exaggeration. When was his competence actually 'demeaned'? And I'd hardly call Hulk's flicking gag humiliating. It's not like the team stopped what they were doing and just pointed and laughed at him for 5 minutes straight. Besides so far Clint's been getting the best one-liners.

Clint has been getting the best one-liners but I think this is part of the trope - the snarky complainer (who's usually the funny one) often ends up as the victim of various gags or Hulk-flick-aways etc. I like Clint's lines, and they are good, but the "let's have him end up getting thrown about by Hulk" thing is just immature, unnecessary and simply unjustified.

 

[CyberCubed]

The animation bothered me more than anything else. The actual character designs are fine, but its way the characters moved and the way the "camera" jumped from scene to scene and sometimes zoomed in on characters faces.

There was also that awful character montage shot where everyone literally looked like a cardboard cut-out as it cycled through them.

And yeah, all the jokes were awful and cringeworthy. I'm usually not someone to complain about corny dialouge, but every "joke" or "jab" in this show was horrible. I didn't even smirk, and the characters have weak chemistry together. There is much worse characterisation here than in the previous show.

I probably won't be watching this show regularly, but at least I gave the first two eps a chance.

 

[Silverbolt]

Very weak opening episodes. To me the writing feels almost as if it were pulled from some bad fan fiction. I might give this a few more episodes, but this is very weak when compared to the Marvel series that have been recently produced and dropped.

These episodes also feel like half of it is missing.

 

[I_Spyral]

This was really, really bland. Not as cringe-inducing as Ultimate Spider-Man though.

 

[Venom Melendez]

Still, I think Rick's reminder serves as yet more evidence that Widow is getting the Mary Sue treatment. This is NOT a good thing.

But she is not getting a "Mary Sue treatment". it's always funny that any time you have woman being as competent as the men, some fans will suddenly cry out "Mary Sue". If Black Widow was a man, no one would be complaining. Seriously though, Black Widow is spot on in this show and you should remember that she is a super spy.

Clint doesn't have the same training that she has. Besides, episode 2 & 3 already disprove what you said.

 

[suss2it]

But she is not getting a "Mary Sue treatment". it's always funny that any time you have woman being as competent as the men, some fans will suddenly cry out "Mary Sue". If Black Widow was a man, no one would be complaining. Seriously though, Black Widow is spot on in this show and you should remember that she is a super spy.

Clint doesn't have the same training that she has.

I agree 100% with this. Also Black Widow isn't really a humorous character like Clint can be so its easier and more natural to put him in more humorous situations than it would be with Widow.

This show does have its flaws, but sometimes it feels like people are just nitpicking it to death because it replaced A: EMH.

 

[Aang]

But she is not getting a "Mary Sue treatment". it's always funny that any time you have woman being as competent as the men, some fans will suddenly cry out "Mary Sue". If Black Widow was a man, no one would be complaining. Seriously though, Black Widow is spot on in this show and you should remember that she is a super spy.

Clint doesn't have the same training that she has. Besides, episode 2 & 3 already disprove what you said.

Very true. Black Widow in the pilot was Black Widow in the Avengers movie. Although some people were complaining similarly about Captain America in the pilot. No, I did not get that complaint either.

 

[Choppasmith]

Finally watched the first two-parter. It was ... okay. I think the whole insistence that it's continuity just bugged me more than anything else. And yeah, the animation seemed sloppy in some parts. The recent episode showed this last Sunday was considerably better, but I dunno, not quite feeling it yet :/