So they KILL now??

[DerekPowers]

i dont know about you all, but i was alittle disturbed to see how many people the JL killed in "the savage time". i know its war, but still, it just left me a bit confused.

first off, for those comics experts out there, we need to clear some things up. Out of Superman, Flash, WW, HG, MM, and GL (we already know about batman), who has vowed not to kill and who kills from time to time?

Now, if the JL can justify killing during a war, why cant they justify it when, say, oh i don't know, aresia is trying to wipe out EVERY SINGLE MAN ON THE PLANET! or, for example, when gorrilla grodd is trying to take over the world, i mean, he's only a gorrilla, right? it seems that matters to the JL, since they had no problem killing all those aliens in "secret origins". why didnt they kill felix faust who was threatening to open the gates of hell, for crying out loud. i'd say thats alittle worse than nazis.

i know its a bit unrealistic to think they would never kill anyone in all their battles (purposely that is), but its only a cartoon, and i think such ideals as not killing should be maintained, especially by superheros. superheros like superman represnt extreme good, while say, joker, represents extreme evil. extreme good cant be one that kills, you know what im saying?

it just seems like theres no clear line that the JL wont cross. with batman, you KNOW he wont kill, and if he ever does, you can sure as hell expect him to struggle with it and show his pain. with all the other JL members, i dont know where they stand. does anyone know where they stand in the comics? whats your opinions on where they stand in the animated series?

peace.

 

[Trent Lane]

If you're refering to the dogfights in Savage Time, you look real close and a good many of the German pilots escaped... now that plane Supes hit with the other plane... I can't explain that. I don't know as to where the line is drawn. Aliens and robots are one thing, people are another...

 

[Kryptcom]

I'll grant you that "killing" a robot is a freebie since it isn't alive to begin with, but I don't agree with the Justice League killing the aliens from "Secret Origins" or the German soliders in "The Savage Time". I mean, how can the Justice League justify wantonly killing aliens when 3 of the 7 are aliens, and one of the 4 humans works with an intergalactic corps of them?

As far as killing German soldiers goes, I don't see how the Justice League can justify the taking of human lives or altering history that way. Wasn't their whole mission supposed to be putting the past back to the way it was? I would argue that killing people from the past would count as changing history.

I realize that "it was war", but nobody in the Justice League is a solider (except John Stewart, technically)! I also understand that many of the German soldiers supposedly escaped, but I certainly didn't know to look for that and as such didn't notice it. To me it just looked like the good guys taking people out.

I didn't realize that The Authority had gotten themselves new costumes at the JL's garage sale.

 

[SimonMoon5]

Originally posted by DerekPowers
Out of Superman, Flash, WW, HG, MM, and GL (we already know about batman), who has vowed not to kill and who kills from time to time?

Pre-Crisis, Superman had an oath against killing that went extra extra far, so he couldn't kill dogs, etc, but sentient robots were okay to kill. After killing Mxyzptlk, he felt he had gone too far, and exposed himself to Gold Kryptonite, thereby permanently removing his powers. Post-Crisis, he killed the Phantom Zone villains, which made him go a little nuts for a while, but he eventually realized that he shouldn't do that sort of thing again, but he has already killed, which some say makes him less of a hero.

Wonder Woman has no compunction against killing, since she tends to fight mythological creatures that you're supposed to kill. Nonetheless, she seems to have adopted the general superhero attitudes. Wonder Woman is always a contradiction, being the warrior who fights for peace.

The Green Lanterns of Earth don't usually kill. John Stewart's hubris lead to the destruction of a planet which made him feel bad for a while, but I don't think he's ever killed anyone deliberately (not counting some possible weirdness in Mosaic). Kyle Rayner, however, stood by and watched as Guy Gardner killed Major Force, but Kyle wouldn't do the killing himself. (Of course, Major Force has been resurrected four times since then, so the point is somewhat moot.)

The pre-Crisis Thanagarian Hawkgirl was not a killer. The post-Crisis Thanagarian Hawkwoman was a cop with no particular compunctions against killing. In fact, Hawkman would often try to restrain her bloodthirsty attitude.

Martian Manhunter is also probably against killling, as all good Silver Age heroes are. I don't recall any particular references, however, and he may have been made more gritty and dull in his latest ongoing series.

Likewise, Flash doesn't kill.

However, for Flash, GL, and MM, (all of whom don't kill), this is not so much a vow, as just an assumed aspect of how a superhero acts. It's like asking which members of royalty don't spit in public, since none of them should (even though they don't take a vow not to spit in public... as far as I know).

Oddly, the only one who has a vow against killing (Superman) is one of the few who actually has killed.

 

[cartoonboy]

Alternate Reality?

 

[Simpler Simon]

It all comes back to the general moral question of why it's "okay" to kill in war...because the ends justify the means? I think all the heroes know that they're taking lives, but that they're only doing so because there's no other way. Killing is part of war...you can't say Green Lantern and Superman can't kill just because they've got super powers. Is it okay for the Blackhawks and Easy Company to kill, just because they don't have super powers? What's important is that while they may be killers, they're not murderers. Superman wouldn't go onto the battlefield and deliberately start slicing heads off with his heat vision.

 

[Atom Man]

I personally don't see the problem in it. I mean, we don't actually know for a fact that they killed anyone in The Savage Time. It appears that way because the planes blew up while the pilots were flying them, but we never actually know that they were killed. And when the JL "kill", there's never been any blood or grusomeness. Also, it's just a cartoon. The JL has less violence in it than many cartoons or shows out there. All of the fight scenes are clearly "cartoon violence", I think that saying that the JL kills too much, is over doing it. I think that this should be one topic that is passed over.

 

[DarkLantern]

If you define "killing" as "not going out of your way to save someone", then JL members have "killed" in other episodes -- War World and Fury come to mind.

DL

 

[murmur]

Hawkgirl's speech to Flash about why she didn't rescue GL applies here. It's a choice. "Some choice," as Flash would say, but it's a choice. Leaving a member of the team behind is very uncharacteristic for a superhero, but sacrifices must be made in critical situations. The same can be said about taking a life. In a wartime situation, you can choose restraint and compromise the lives of your men to disable rather than kill the enemy, or you can do what it takes to win for your cause. Superman knew that, and grimly gave Hawkgirl his decision. I thought it was one of Supes' few good character moments.

 

[DerekPowers]

i understand that its war and killing is part of the greater good, but as far as the JL goes, i dont buy it, only because there have been countless times in the series where the world faced a much greater threat than nazis. so if theyre killing in a war to save the world from nazi germany, your telling me they shouldnt kill to save the world from the leader of hell (hades), or from aresia, or anyone else like that that poses that kind of apocolyptic threat? by that logic felix faust, aresia, morgan ley fay, and countless others would be toast right now.

i simply think the writers didnt think about the consequences of these actions. there were MANY planes w/out pilots parachuting out that blew up. alot had them, but alot didnt.

i dont know, it doesnt sit well with me. i think its kind of ridiculous having every pilot parachute to safety too. maybe they could have rounded up all the pilots if w/ gl's ring, if it was working. something like that. i dont know, it just makes the line very unclear.

you know what would be GREAT! if there was an episode next season dealing with this issue, where batman has serious disagreements with them on this. maybe batman could go against them in battle cause he feels theyre taking too many lives. that would be cool. i wouldnt mind the fact that some of them kill (like ww and hg seem like the type), but i feel they should definately address it. peace.

 

[murmur]

Originally posted by DerekPowers
i understand that its war and killing is part of the greater good, but as far as the JL goes, i dont buy it, only because there have been countless times in the series where the world faced a much greater threat than nazis. so if theyre killing in a war to save the world from nazi germany, your telling me they shouldnt kill to save the world from the leader of hell (hades), or from aresia, or anyone else like that that poses that kind of apocolyptic threat? by that logic felix faust, aresia, morgan ley fay, and countless others would be toast right now.
The difference is not the seriousness of the threat, but the immediate nature thereof. In war, innocent people are dying constantly, and every split-second always counts. Not that other threats aren't races against the clock, but there aren't usually as many consequences for meeting your objective with less time to spare. Besides, the characters you mention are powerful foes; killing them isn't exactly the most feasible option. Aresia and Morgan le Fay would probably be easier to subdue or allow to self-destruct than kill anyway. With Felix Faust, he was using the amazons as hostages and they didn't even fully know about his plans until too late.

i simply think the writers didnt think about the consequences of these actions. there were MANY planes w/out pilots parachuting out that blew up. alot had them, but alot didnt.
Au contraire, this must have been very well thought out. You may disagree with their decisions, but the censorship issues of a war in a cartoon are many and not to be taken lightly. Timm and co. would not just let the chips fall where they may here.

i dont know, it doesnt sit well with me. i think its kind of ridiculous having every pilot parachute to safety too. maybe they could have rounded up all the pilots if w/ gl's ring, if it was working. something like that. i dont know, it just makes the line very unclear.
[Nodding] There is no easy answer.

you know what would be GREAT! if there was an episode next season dealing with this issue, where batman has serious disagreements with them on this. maybe batman could go against them in battle cause he feels theyre taking too many lives. that would be cool. i wouldnt mind the fact that some of them kill (like ww and hg seem like the type), but i feel they should definately address it. peace.
I'm with you here. Examining the issue of taking a life deserves to come out of the subtext and dealt with more fully.

 

[Achika]

I could she Hawkgirl killing purposely, but Superman? That just did not seem right at all(if indeed he did kill many of those pilots).

 

[Drachentöter]

Here's my theory:

Killing an individual, face-to-face, man/woman-to-man/woman is wrong for any member of the JL. Superman will never kill Lex Luthor. Batman will never kill the Joker. Wonder Woman will never kill Felix Faust. Flash will never kill the Weather Wizard. Kyle Rayner would never kill Sinestro. Etc.

But it seems the JL has no qualms about killing armies. It might make less sense at first, but give it some thought. A fighter is in a different state of mind when up against many hundreds. It's kill or be killed in that situation. How were Superman or Hawkgirl to know that the Germans could eject from their planes? How do we know that all the German pilots made it out alive?

No, Supes and HG didn't give it any thought, because "it was war" yes. They're in a situation where the only option is to defeat the enemy at whatever the cost. In the dogfight scene it was a squadron of planes against their side, most firing only at Supes and HG. It was their only opportunity.

In the jumbo jet scene, there were HUNDREDS of soldiers on each plane. When one blows up, at least a hundred Nazis go with it. And yet, the JL still made one blow up and let one sink in the water. Again, they had to modify their "vows" for this case.

Call them hypocrites, but it's how it goes. If it was a solitary soldier firing at a JLer, none of them would probably try to harm him. But then there's the sniper scene, but he had already injured someone and he was a sniper...There isn't any other way to solve a sniper problem other than shooting in the sniper's direction (I am convinced he died).

Same goes for otherwise peaceful young men who suddenly get drafted. They'll end up killing other men too. It may take a large toll on their psyche, but they did what they were forced to do. Blame the system, not the fighter.

So, really, my only complaint is why don't they show the JLers feeling remorseful for what they've done? I have no problems with them actually doing it in that situation, but why shrug it off? Isn't that sending the wrong message?

Now, I'll be a hypocrite and repeat that I still love the episode and I still give it five stars.

 

[Sparvid]

If we're talkning about situations where they are "forced" to kill or not (think for example on the Punisher issue where he tied up Daredevil with a gun in his hand and said "I'm going to snipe the criminal down on the street, and the only way you can stop me in time is shooting me"), my guesses are:

Superman: No.
Flash: No.
Wonder Woman: Yes, she is a warrior.
Hawkgirl: Think so.
Martian Manhunter: No, I think that all the martians had stopped killing.
Green Lantern: Yes.

 

[Drachentöter]

Superman has killed in the comics, why can't it happen in JL?

And what about Batman? In a dire situation, I would say yes for him. It's basic instinct to kill if you're threatened at that level. Even Flash might have to kill an enemy if it were "do or die." I do think Sparvid is right on a scale of feelings toward killing. Wonder Woman was raised that way, Hawkgirl is a warrior spirt, and John Stewart was a marine. So, yes, they'd be the first to kill the enemy.

 

[Lina Inverse]

I see what you are getting at....the super heroes aren't meant to talke lives, but right wrongs and try to turn the villians from their rotten ways or make sure they are put away in their proper places.

I had been thinking about it too.....if one or two people died back then that weren't meant to ...a great string of things would have changed.....because one person can make a difference in that case. Even if it were to be a small thing like descision makin about whether to go out shopping on a rainy day.....the little things that effect other people. THe ones who wrote the plot for this animated feature didn't think through the possibilities well enough and if they did, couldn't make it work....perhaps?????


Lina I.

 

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

I don't think anybody died in "The Savage Time." Look closely...for example, when John Stewart shot that guy in the tree, he actually didn't hit him...he hit his gun, which knocked it out of his hand and knocked him out of the tree at the same time. Everyone should relax...they didn't kill anybody. The soldiers might have, and maybe the Blackhawks did but the Justice League didn't.

 

[tphile]

Originally posted by JusticeLeagueLegion
I don't think anybody died in "The Savage Time." Look closely...for example, when John Stewart shot that guy in the tree, he actually didn't hit him...he hit his gun, which knocked it out of his hand and knocked him out of the tree at the same time. Everyone should relax...they didn't kill anybody. The soldiers might have, and maybe the Blackhawks did but the Justice League didn't.

No This is WWII and D-Day. Of course a lot of people died
and by JL too.
Its a shame that PC has so screwed up comics and cartoons that death and killing are such taboo issues.
If you saw the pilot when the plane was destroyed he survived. but if you didn't then they died like most of the invading air fleet.
So Timm was trying to work around the censors.
but its damned if you do and damned if you don't. Ya just can't win with some people
I think Jonny Quest was that last cartoon that depicted death realistically and that was the best series ever made imho
now we have stupid idiotic shows like G I Joe.

Can't a hero kill in self defense or in a good cause and still be a hero? Policemen and Soldiers face that every day
Besides, the JL true mission in The Savage Time was to restore the time line which would render the whole thing historically academic anyway. How many more would have lived and died because of that

 

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

Originally posted by tphile
No This is WWII and D-Day. Of course a lot of people died
and by JL too.
Its a shame that PC has so screwed up comics and cartoons that death and killing are such taboo issues.
If you saw the pilot when the plane was destroyed he survived. but if you didn't then they died like most of the invading air fleet.
So Timm was trying to work around the censors.
but its damned if you do and damned if you don't. Ya just can't win with some people
I think Jonny Quest was that last cartoon that depicted death realistically and that was the best series ever made imho
now we have stupid idiotic shows like G I Joe.

Can't a hero kill in self defense or in a good cause and still be a hero? Policemen and Soldiers face that every day
Besides, the JL true mission in The Savage Time was to restore the time line which would render the whole thing historically academic anyway. How many more would have lived and died because of that

D-Day in the animated DC universe is obviously different than the real universe...because I paid close attention, and nobody died...I saw. Superman never kills...he killed General Zodd once and felt terrible...he would feel even more terrible if he killed some normal human when he could have just pulled him out of the plane...I wouldn't nessasarily put it past the other members that they would kill, but I KNOW that Superman would never kill...unless he had no choice, and in this instance, he had a choice...there were other options...he could have defeated them without killing them...besides...the JLA wasn't there in the original timeline, maybe since they were there a lot more lives were spared. This was an alternate D-Day. By the way, what the heck do you mean by PC?

 

[metaphysician]

Batman has probably the strongest no-killing code of the bunch.

As for whether they should be willing to or not, I think that they should perhaps follow the lead of the Avengers: trying to minimize loss of life, but willing to kill if absolutely necessary.

As for all those "bigger" threats, part of the problem is that most of them have a plot-convenient way of defeating the threat without having to kill. Personally, I'd like to see, in the comics, more moral dillemas, where either the foe cannot be defeated without killing him, or cannot be defeated with massively increased loss of innocent life.