Toonami Ratings

[EnigmaticWarrior]

Yes it is. Even if you are confused with SD wide-screen vs HD wide-screen from what you see on YOUR TV, there should be no doubt when you record it to DVR. An HD record is nearly 3 times the size of an SD one. CN has not been airing HD programs regularly on it's HD channel since 2008. They regularly air SD wide-screen on their HD channel. That is different than 4x3 stretched. I don't know about Bebop. I will have to record it on the HD channel this weeked to see. Bleach though is 4x3 stretched on the SD channel & SD wide-screen on the HD channel.

Eureka Seven is merely an upscale from an SD source. It is not native HD. At. All.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

Eureka Seven is merely an upscale from an SD source. It is not native HD.

Do you really think everyone reading this thread is going to know what you mean by proper, native, upscale, or upconverting? The programs I listed are indicated in TV listings as HD quality programs which means they fill a 1080i screen as best they can. Does any one doubt that E7 on the HD channel is of a higher quality transmission than when [as] first aired it? Does any one doubt that provides fans in HD households a greater incentive to watch then? That's the only point I was making & the only one that really matters in terms of ratings.

FYI: proper or native HD means it was filmed or produced with an HD camera capable of 1080i or more. I believe that is the case with E7 AO & the other new E7 productions, but not the older stuff. The i stands for interlaced. I'm aware of just a 720p B-R E7 release, but B-R players perform upconversion to fill 1080i. That process comes at a cost in quality of softness & deinterlacing. The higher the quality of the upconversion the less a viewer will notice the s & d. I can only speak for my provider, U-Verse. The quality is such that neither s & d are noticeable form a normal viewing distance. You have to get right up to the tv to notice both. The deinterlacing is more noticeable than the softness. Deinterlacing is essentially a noticeable loss of information in the combining of frames.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

Only having SD masters of E7 would make sense because that was all AS had of it back in 2006,

That's irrelevant because that license expired long ago, & any new license would most likely involve whatever the content provider has available. The higher the resolution the better I would think for an HD channel. That being said, I think native HD (1080) is rare over HD channels in general.S7 is available in 1080 on B-R, but I have looked at the HD record up close & I can see evidence of both softness & deinterlacing there as well. The quality difference then between E7 & S7 is not great. I've since looked at other HD channels such as ESPN & local channels & have noticed softness & deinterlacing there as well. All that can really be said then about programs listed as HD by content providers is that they are of better quality than SD. The degree to which they are better is not so much dependant upon the source as it is the bandwidth & bit-rate the provider wants to provide for those channels. For example, my local PBS airs HD over-the-air at 720p. As such it does not fill the entire HD screen but the quality is HD. Switching to U-Verse, that same HD channel does fill the enitre screen but the upconverting evidence is obvious up close.

 

[Ishtar]

That's irrelevant because that license expired long ago, & any new license would most likely involve whatever the content provider has available. The higher the resolution the better I would think for an HD channel. That being said, I think native HD (1080) is rare over HD channels in general.S7 is available in 1080 on B-R, but I have looked at the HD record up close & I can see evidence of both softness & deinterlacing there as well. The quality difference then between E7 & S7 is not great. I've since looked at other HD channels such as ESPN & local channels & have noticed softness & deinterlacing there as well. All that can really be said then about programs listed as HD by content providers is that they are of better quality than SD. The degree to which they are better is not so much dependant upon the source as it is the bandwidth & bit-rate the provider wants to provide for those channels. For example, my local PBS airs HD over-the-air at 720p. As such it does not fill the entire HD screen but the quality is HD. Switching to U-Verse, that same HD channel does fill the enitre screen but the upconverting evidence is obvious up close.

Not necessarily. CN/AS have reused old masters before when they've regained rights. When DBZ aired for April Fools, they used the same old master from 2000 as opposed to using the Orange Brick masters or the Dragon Boxes. Like I said, I don't think Bandai even had HD masters of E7 to give to AS. Want evidence? As I said before, the opening and ending are edited down the same way they were in 2006. Also, if they cared that much about making sure all of their shows were HD, they would have got proper HD masters for Bleach and Brotherhood. Instead, we still have the letterboxed SD masters stretched for the HD feed.

 

[Cartoon X]

You know what? Who really cares if the shows are SD or HD or not? Most people I know don't even know the actual differences between them and if I showed them images to compare, they'd probably wouldn't even see a difference. SD or HD be damned, I just watch the shows I like, and that's what most people, including Eureka 7 fans like my little brother, do too.

 

[Sketch]

I wasn't going to say anything more because I feel the other folks have got it covered well enough but good gravy RIF, go here http://www.hulu.com/eureka-seven or crunchyroll and compare it to the the CN HD feed recording of Eureka 7. You can see the video in it's proper aspect ratio looks different. That's what the SD feed looks like as well. They stretched the 4:3 and are not using a proper HD upscale either. It's not like with FUNimation who had Yu Yu Hakusho and Trigun HD tapes to lend to Adult Swim for April 1st. It's like what they did with Dragon Ball Z and all of the Bandai shows that night. They used the old tapes because they still had them. They're using the old E7 tapes from 2006 because it was cheaper than buying new tapes from Bandai. CN didn't throw away those tapes but they had to get permission to use them again and in the case of E7 re-negotiate the broadcast rights for more than a one time special event.

How many people need to tell you you're wrong about this before you listen? Sheesh.

They're making an effort to air as many shows in HD as they can but because it's much cheaper to air old tapes than buy new HD ones they're going to do some of that as well. In the case of Eureka 7 there may actually have been no other option due to lack of HD or even wide screen tapes to buy instead of using the old tapes.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

It's not like with FUNimation who had Yu Yu Hakusho and Trigun HD tapes to lend to Adult Swim for April 1st. It's like what they did with Dragon Ball Z and all of the Bandai shows that night. They used the old tapes because they still had them. They're using the old E7 tapes from 2006 because it was cheaper than buying new tapes from Bandai.

Tapes? Are you referring to analog media? It costs far more to maintain analog equipment than it does to convert the media to digital. I doubt very much [as] still uses analog equipment in their day to day operations. That seems preposterus. It doesn't cost Bandai anything more than a few man hrs to provide [as] with digital media of Eureka 7. None of the shows on TOONAMI classic night where listed as HD programs on the HD channel so that night was irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

You know what? Who really cares if the shows are SD or HD or not?

It matters. If you adjust your receiver to SD wide-screen & playback an HD record, you will notice a considerable difference. There is greater deinterlacing during action sequences, & more softness or fuzzyness in objects. That's because information is being lost from the HD record,& the upconvert process the receiver has does it's best job with what's left. If you set the receiver to HD 1080 there is no noticeable difference in deinterlacing & softness between Samurai 7 & Eureka 7. The big difference between them is how they were produced in the Japanese studio's. Samurai 7 was produced in 16:9, & Eureka 7 in 4:3. In terms of HD tv resolution that's 1920x1080 vs 1440x1080. HD TV's are designed for 1920x1080. If the TV is set for proportional view & the program is in 1440x1080 it will fill the space vertically, but not horizontally. That is what's happening with Eureka 7. It doesn't make any sense for [as] to leave this to the service provider, so either they, Bandai, or a 3rd party that will soon assume the E7 distribution license from Bandai is doing it. Either way it is a MUCH better viewing experience than the SD channel has to offer & as such that can help with the ratings. That was the only point I was making.

FYI: The original aspect of the produced content matters as well. If you setup your HDtv for stretched or panorama mode you will lose information from something produced in 4:3 like E7. That's because these modes will first upconvert the image to 1920x1440 & then crop it to fit in 1920x1080. You can't go wrong with proportional view but people I know including myself prefer panorama for sports.

 

[Cartoon X]

It matters. If you adjust your receiver to SD wide-screen & playback an HD record, you will notice a considerable difference. There is greater deinterlacing during action sequences, & more softness or fuzzyness in objects. That's because information is being lost from the HD record,& the upconvert process the receiver has does it's best job with what's left. If you set the receiver to HD 1080 there is no noticeable difference in deinterlacing & softness between Samurai 7 & Eureka 7. The big difference between them is how they were produced in the Japanese studio's. Samurai 7 was produced in 16:9, & Eureka 7 in 4:3. In terms of HD tv resolution that's 1920x1080 vs 1440x1080. HD TV's are designed for 1920x1080. If the TV is set for proportional view & the program is in 1440x1080 it will fill the space vertically, but not horizontally. That's not what's happening with Eureka 7 HD.

That's all well and good, I suppose, but what I was trying to say is that the fact that a show is HD or SD means nothing to me because ultimately it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the show or the non-visual quality of the show, which is the most important thing in my opinion. I honestly don't think most Eureka 7 fans care if the show is HD or not. They just watch the show because they like it. That's what I think most casual viewers do too.

 

[ChibiGoku]

Let me get to the point. Understand, some information may not be 100% accurate, but it should get to the point.

The masters that Cartoon Network had recieved were SD Digibeta tapes, which have a resolution (or roughly) of 720x480i, which was commonly used in Standard Definition broadcasts. While I am not 100% sure if US broadcast use these, standards in Japan use HDCAM, which has a potential resolution of 1920x1080, or as most broadcasts are, 1440x1080, with it stretching to 16:9. What is happening here is CN is upscaling the digibetas that they had for Eureka 7, from 720x480, to 1920x1080, or potentially 1280x720 (as I believe that's what the channel broadcasts at, atleast in my area).

Because CN is upscaling footage of Eureka 7 to 720/1080, they are introducing additional problems, as the upscale isn't... perfect, with interlacing problems showing. Samurai 7 is an HD produced show, though is somewhat of a softer show (it should also be noted that each shot may not always be the same resolution). Notice it does not have the similar problems as Eureka 7 in terms of upscaling.

The problem here is there is an HD master for Eureka 7, but CN nor Bandai (despite coproducing it) have access to the material. That or Bandai does not have the budget to put together a new master for CN's broadcast, which either could be the case. Another problem with your claim is that the masters would be sent 1920x1080, Pillar-boxed, as that is how most HD masters are prepared. Even masters on Japanese TV that have an aspect ratio of 4:3, are still pillar-boxed and stretched from 1440x1080. Blu-ray, also, as far as I am aware, to spec is always displayed as 16:9, 720p/1080i/p, regardless of the resolution (as the format can do 1440, but it is stretched). Other resolutions on that are therefor stretched or not stretched, depending if the flag for 16:9 is selected.

I should also note FUNimation sent CN/AS the Yu Yu Hakusho episode with the BD master, and it was 4:3PB. It was quite obvious for those watching the Standard definition feed, as CN neglected to crop the feed.

I also have noticed some channels can properly change the aspect ratio on broadcast, but there may be a chance said broadcasts may simply be hard encoded 16:9, or 4:3PB, or just simply stretching the footage. Which, essentially, CN does with all their content (as well as Turner), unless they have a proper Pillar-boxed master.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

What is happening here is CN is upscaling the digibetas that they had for Eureka 7, from 720x480, to 1920x1080, or potentially 1280x720 (as I believe that's what the channel broadcasts at, atleast in my area).

It wouldn't be area dependant if CN was doing it. I think what's happening is the desired aspect ratio is being sent in the control information of the signal (set by program) & the service providers are using their technology to upconvert it to their desired resolution depending on whether it's for an SD or HD channel. If you are seeing it as 1920x1080 you should try setting your tv to proportional view. While I assumed it was 1440x1080 following the original aspect ratio of 1.33, it's possible it's 1620x1080 following the digibetas aspect ratio of 1.5. I'm not aware of any master for Eureka 7 having a rato of 1.78. I'm not talking about Bandai America either. I'm talking about fan subs of the japanese productions. You just can't find a copy of an original 1.78 ratio any where.

FYI: Letterbox is some empty space vertically, Pillarbox is some empty space horizontally, & windowed is empty space both vertically & horizontally. I recall YYH appearing windowed that night.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

That's all well and good, I suppose, but what I was trying to say is that the fact that a show is HD or SD means nothing to me because ultimately it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the show or the non-visual quality of the show, which is the most important thing in my opinion. I honestly don't think most Eureka 7 fans care if the show is HD or not. They just watch the show because they like it. That's what I think most casual viewers do too.

You are right about new viewers, but for those that have seen it before when [as] first aired it some will be looking for something new in the experience. HD offers that to some degree. Since we are discussing upconverting/upscaling for HD, it's worth listing the formats that existed before HDTV. PAL (768x576 ar 1.33), DV NTSC/VGA (720x480 ar 1.5), XGA (1024x768 ar 1.33), & HDTV (1280x720 ar 1.78). I believe Eureka 7 aired both on [as] & [as].com & offering a VGA format for pc viewing made a lot of sense then. On tv this would appear letterbox on an SD channel which I think it did then. Still my point remains valid as the presentation of Eureka 7 back then does not compare to what it does today. Whether you credit [as], Bandai, U-Verse, Comcast, the quality is substantially better both on the SD & HD channels. I do recall deinterlacing problems with that original airing & they are not apparent on the HD channel.

TCats, CSins, & Samurai 7 have an aspect ratio of 1.78 so HD is not an issue there. There would be no problem with Brotherhood either as it's orig ar is 1.78. GitS S2 is 1.78 but S1 is 1.33. Bebop is 1.33 & VIZ has only released 1.33 for Bleach even though it's studio oar has been 1.78 for some time now. Symbionic-Titan is also 1.33. For any 1.33 program you need to set your HDTV to proportional view or you risk losing objects that appear in the original.

On Nov 20, 2012 Warner Home Entertainment & Viz Media will release Inuyasha:Final Act with an ar of 1.78. All prior seasons had an ar of 1.33.

 

[The Man in Black]

So guys, um....how about them Toonami ratings? I'd glad for there to be more Toonami conversation but it seems like this stuff might belong in its own thread..

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

So guys, um....how about them Toonami ratings?

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/20...ng-amish-more/153061/comment-page-3/#comments Some Sat & Sun ratings to compare vs sobr for [as]: 18-49/p2+ WDead Peek 10:3p 701k/1.2m AmerHorHouse 9p 472k/1.2m, PitBulls 10p 533k/1.1m, ESPN2 9p 449k/1.1m, UFC 153 704k/1.04m. 700k in 18-49 = 0.6, 400-500k = 0.4. WWE AM Raw was not avail . TMNT led Sat morning in 18-49 w 0.8 & SW:CW was #2 w 0.51. The Clev Show seemed nearly unaffected by the Dead peek at 10:3p but the night was sunk by Black Dyn losing 1/3rd of the HH's that tuned in for Cleve. It looks like none of them came back. It is what it is.

I was wrong about the TOONAMI HD feed. The cropping has already taken place. Changing your view on your HDTV to proportional has no effect. So a true HD aspect ratio of 1.78 matters even more if you want to see the show in it's entirety as it was produced in Japan. The service provider isn't do this either because it's too customized. I compared E7 HD to E7 Hulu. They are doing major stretching which distorts the image, & minor cropping both top & minor. They seem to be deciding on a happy medium between distortion from stretching & cropping. I have no Hulu comparison for SymbTitan but I imagine it's the same thing. The main thing you get with the HD vs the SD feed is more horizontal of the image. There is no vertical cropping I'm aware of happening to Bleach, FmA:B, & the other wide format shows but there is considerable horizontal cropping. You can see the difference vs Hulu.

 

[Manga4life]

SD......HD, I don't really give a damn as long as I can watch the shows I enjoy. Tech specs and the style of definition is truly irrelevant to those who just want to watch and enjoy their shows. If someone wants to watch them in the best possible specs than they can just go out and purchase the DVD's or something, but I for one care nothing for what aspect ratio or what definition Toonami airs their shows in, in fact I think arguing about it is quite petty. The average viewer most likely does not care in the least.

 

[Cartoon X]

SD......HD, I don't really give a damn as long as I can watch the shows I enjoy. Tech specs and the style of definition is truly irrelevant to those who just want to watch and enjoy their shows. If someone wants to watch them in the best possible specs than they can just go out and purchase the DVD's or something, but I for one care nothing for what aspect ratio or what definition Toonami airs their shows in, in fact I think arguing about it is quite petty. The average viewer most likely does not care in the least.

Totally agree with you 100%. I watch Toonami for the shows regardless of definition. All this SD/HD babble is rather pointless because whatever effect definition has on Toonami's ratings is probably negligible at best.

 

[Manga4life]

Totally agree with you 100%. I watch Toonami for the shows regardless of definition. All this SD/HD babble is rather pointless because whatever effect definition has on Toonami's ratings is probably negligible at best.

Babble is all that it is. Not counting Nielson's ratings since it's a broken system, if 4 million authentic people were watching Toonami on a Saturday night I'd say maybe less than 400,000 would really give a damn as to whether or not the shows are standard definition, high definition, ultra-super-wowzonga definition, or anything else. People should just be glad that these shows are airing at all and that Toonami is back more so than complaining as to which copy of the master tapes Cartoon Network owns or has the right to air and whether or not the shows are of a certain definition....

At the end of the day only a very small percentage truly cares.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

My original point in mentioning HD was lost over the "quality of the HD" debate. When IFC first aired S7, & [as] first aired E7. there were just a few % of HH's with HD services. Now it's over 1/3rd of all HH's. So even if anime fans were lukewarm to these shows then, those that now represent HD HH's have an added incentive to watch them again. Regardless of what the quality is for any HD program appearing on CN/[as] HD there should be no doubt it's superior to the SD version. The other incentive for CN shows like SymbTitan & TCats is that they can watch with just the one long commercial break. I don't recall whether SbT was available in HD when it aired on CN but it looks fantastic on [as]. I think [as] continues to buck the trend with their break format (mid break + break betw shows) because it's a case where if it's "not broke, don't fix it." [as] for yrs has retained viewers over thier ad space at rates well above the avg, & I don't see why that would change now.

FYI Ratings: [as] Sat might have gotten a boost on the 13th because SNL was weak. It produced just a 2.2 18-49 which is well below last yr's seasonal avg. This past Sat it rebounded to a 2.9. AMC is back on Dish so TWD fig's to be a bigger threat to [as] Sun & makes you wonder if AMC is going to air encore's Sat night. While we mostly discuss the Live+SD program ratings here, TOONAMI probably gets a major lift over Live+7D. But a comparison of all tv #'s suggest that Live+SD program ratings are in line with commercial ratings over 3D (C+3D). That makes sense when you consider how much commercial skipping is going on with those DVR views. It's enough to where VOD program are now disabling FF & skip functions for ads. Still there are exceptions: FG on FOX did a 3.3 L+SD in 18-49, & that got lifted to 3.7 in C3. That's about 0.3 above the avg.

 

[Sketch]

Yes having the single break is particularly nice for ThunderCats because it had a particular break point in each episode which CN generally ignored in favor of making other break points so there was usually a point in the episode when it faded for a break only to start back up again. That could be more than a little jarring.

I'm not entirely sure about Sym-Bionic Titan because I didn't have HD at the time but ThunderCats has always been HD.

And no when I said tapes I didn't necessarily mean analog video but they had to convert the old ones at some point and that's what they did with Eureka 7 and the shows on April 1st other than YYH, Tenchi and Trigun which FUNimation provided HD video for.

 

[RabidInuyashaFan]

I'm not entirely sure about Sym-Bionic Titan because I didn't have HD at the time.

SInce it's OAR is likely 1.33 (that's what I've been able to find) it's a moot issue. What's on HD now is a combination of stretching & cropping & they've done a solid job on it. Since the bulk of TOONAMI viewers are likely watching on SD, I hope DeMarco reconsiders it's horizontal length. Fullmetal fans lose quite a bit when you compare the ep to Hulu. That's why I've changed my habits to record the HD shows now regardless of whether HD quality is available.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/20...ampaign=Feed:+Tvbythenumbers+(TVbytheNumbers) Cable Sun 20121022: Walking Dead fell to 5.1 & below 9.6m. Surprise! FG rose to nearly 2.8m on Sun beating TDead by 0.2 in 18-49. That lifted BDyn to near premiere #'s of 0.8 in 18-49 (1.7m tvs). RC did 0.7 (1.64m). Both of those shows look to have won their timeslots in 18-49 related demogs. This proves again the strength of a FG lead & how important it is to program what follows so it bleeds away gradually. I can only imagine they are keeping BDyn at 11p on Sat's so they will be able to promote a major avg gain for the time slot when a change finally occurs. They could be playing that card on Sun as well. I figure RC would have done well over 2m if it had followed FG directly.