Why is Superman so weak?

[metaphysician]

Re: Re: Re: Superman, not Super?

Originally posted by Corran Horn


My favorite one is where Worf usesa sword in 'Q-pid' to fight with Guy of Gisbourne. Pretty funny. He even gets injured.

While it's possible Superman may limit his powers (post Legacy) I'd think he'd do that only when it came to offense, such as punching people and throwing things around. Would he really limit it when it comes to his reaction time, or the amount laser/ray blasts effect him? I find that hard to believe.

I understand it when it comes to certain things. If he gets hit by a huge steamroller or a semi-truck, is he allowed to be knocked back a bit? Yes. Knocked off his feet? No.

I mean, I really couldn't believe it when he was manacled along with the others in 'Secret Origins' (I think). I couldn't understand why he couldn't just break through those bonds. Were they made of Kryptonite? Isn't that the only thing that can hurt/weaken Superman?

Just my two cents. (I didn't know Wonder Woman could fly, so what do I know?)

I think the point was the helm things, which seemed to completely disrupt conversation, and probably relax muscles, too. Between that and the fact that all Atlanteans are stronger than human, and those manacles would logically hold.

And, no, other things than Kryptonite can weaken or hurt him. Absence of yellow sunlight, or some kind of advanced tech gadget, can weaken him, and magic or ridiculously high firepower can hurt him.

 

[Luminous]

Luminous

Didn't I (Luminus) have something to do with this in a S:TAS episode??

Seriously, speaking of "de-powering", why does The Flash seem to consistently get the short-end of the stick? The possibilities with Super Speed are vast indeed.

I did like the way he tried to "multi-punch" Hades, why doesn't he do this against other villains??

Also, I was watching In Blackest Night again and noticed that Hawk Girl actually flew FASTER than The Flash was running! It's when he catches her from being thrown by the Manhunters. She says something ("Down boy", I think) in response to one of his flirtatious lines and she launches herself into the air and actually outpaces ol' Speedy. Now I realize that The Flash doesn't HAVE to run at full speed if he doesn't want to. But why wouldn't he want to get back to the scene of the disturbance as soon as possible?? He is a super hero after all. Just doesn't make sense!

 

[Stupendous Man]

Personally ...

I appreciate that Supermans powerlevels have been
kept reasonable.

I really never understand fans who want him to be
an unstoppable God.

You wanna read about god - go steal a bible.

I wanna read/see adventures of a man with cool powers.
And dammit - I wanna see him struggle a little .

JL is a team show, obviously you need there to be a reason
for the team.

Also dont confuse Superman bieng tossed around to bieng
weak. This is a matter of balance not strength or vulnerability.
Even trees with brances dug deep in the earth bend in the wind.

As far as I know supermans toes dont bury themselves in the floor where he stands - given enough force , even though he wont suffer injury Superman will be moved/ thrown / knocked down.

~

I will concede though that even though Supes should stay at his
current powerlevels - they should illustrate that he is still the most powerfull member of the team.

In other words , yeah let hades kick the crap out of Superman -
but make sure you show the fans that superman held his ground with Hades better than any of the other leaguers.

I think its because the show isnt doing a good job of differentiating Supermans strength from say ,that of Martian manhunter - thats why fans are becoming annoyed.

 

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

I agree with an earlier post. Since Superman can barely hold his own against weapons devised by Metropolis SCU and other lesser challenges, the Earth isn't in any danger with or without the League. The next time Darkseid attacks SCU should be able to blast him back to Apokolips. No one wants Superman to be all powerful, but he was shrugging off electrical shocks of considerable magnitude in the comic strips in the 40's. The Superman in the Justice League is weaker than that. You actually made my point for me. No one else had any more trouble fighting Hades than Superman did.

 

[Stupendous Man]

I wouldnt say I made your point for you ...but rather that you missed the point altogether.

The point is that they dont have to make Superman stronger ...
just that they have to do a better job (in the writing) to illustrate how supermans power levels differ from say Martian Manhunter.

The problem seems to be that because they havent been entirely consistent with his powerlevels ...and because they havent given the fans a means of comparing and contrasting powerlevels - a fight between the league and Hades ( A GOD mind you) seems to lose all drama because all the characters seem to react to the attacks identically.

However if they showed you that martian manhunter took three god punches at hades and he smacks him aside without even a second thought .... then Wonder Woman does a kick and he flinches..steps back a bit .... then Superman comes take three good blows and you see Hades actually get knocked back a bit -
flinch and actually struggle to defend himself.

Well in this scenario ...even if hades kicked all their buts three times over - I think the fans would be satisfied.
Because as a fan if you see that Superman was the most successfull at fighting hades it lets you know - A) superman is more powerfull than all these guys and hes still having trouble.
B) Wonder Woman is much more powerfull than Martian Manhunter C) gives you a frame of comparison for all the heros
and future villans.

Because all the heros have the same effect on the villans and all the villans have the same effect on the heros - theres no drama.

I mean can you definitively say that a Manhunter is more Powerfull than Hades? Not really because neither villan was any more succesfull than the other (relatively).

 

[mbaker]

Good points. On the one side many people think that Superman is supose to be all powerful, but if they make him too powerful, the writers would have to use kryptonite in every episode. Plus you can't have any of the other members more powerful than he is. Superman was both tough, and nice at the same time in his own series. I have yet to see that in Justice Leauge.

 

[Mr. Mxyzptlk]

Again... Watch the episode... Superman fared no better than anyone else. That's how you made my point. And you did again.

 

[warmachine04]

This has got to be one of biggest topics that affects the show overall. Dont get me wrong. I dont want superman to be the invincible and unstoppable being from the "Superfreinds". I have two suggestion about this: either make supes stronger or WW weaker. Many people talked about the battle between Supes and WW in "Paradise Lost" as the highlight of the show but it wasn't so much for me. The scene with the firetruck was understandable since from that angle the truck would snap in two. He needed some one to hold the other side while he hold one of the firemen in his other hand.

The only episode that show off Supermans powers well will have to be "In Blackest Night". Many people have gave mixed reviews about it but at least the first part worked quite good for me. The way supes battle the manhunters on earth reminded me of the old STAS. There are rumors that in the upcoming episode "War World" we will see Superman on a more acceptable manner.

 

[Beyond Batman]

My roomates occasionally watch JL with me, and even THEY notice how Superman get's knocked off his feet so easily. Coming from non-fans, that raises some concern.

It's not too much the inconsistancy that bothers me about the JL Superman, but how easily he gets knocked around like a rag doll. Superman is a hard hitting character... he should be able, in return, to endure some hard hits. At least put up a longer lasting fight. I mean c'mon, it seems Terry McGuinnes (in the Bat Suit) has lasted longer and endured longer beatings than the JL Superman.

Getting hit by supernatural creatures or getting struck by highpowered weapons... sure, I'm sure they'd offer resistance against Superman, but the way Superman's been portrayed... he's almost like a "one-hit-wonder." One hit and he's down for the count. Seeing Superman get pimp slapped by Hades was so dissappointing.

I really hope they improve this aspect of the show.

 

[Superboy Prime]

I have been re-watching Justice League Season 1 and I will say that Wonder Woman is the toughest, strongest and most powerful member in that season no doubt. To be honest, it makes me sick...

 

[ShamarDJ]

I have been re-watching Justice League Season 1 and I will say that Wonder Woman is the toughest, strongest and most powerful member in that season no doubt. To be honest, it makes me sick...

why would it make you sick? isn't Wonder Woman just as strong as Superman anyway... and when it comes to being tough shes an amazon...they're born tough

 

[Hordesman]

why would it make you sick? isn't Wonder Woman just as strong as Superman anyway... and when it comes to being tough shes an amazon...they're born tough

Honestly, I think if Wonder Woman is anywhere near Supernan's raw might, she should have an edge. Clark simply doesn't have the training.

 

[JTMarsh]

Superman got knocked around by some uninspiring villains in preceding solo show as well (Live-Wire, that guy in the proto-type Steel suit), which is part of an on-going struggle writers of both mediums have had with the character for years with his strength & stamina levels being all over the place. Just look at the Fleischer cartoons - some of those shorts have Superman beating down giant robots and dinosaurs and bird people, yet in other shorts he's nearly defeated by gas bombs, circus animals and a trap door. In the Reeve movies you'd see him getting floored into unconsciousness by a bus and then two films later he'd be moving the moon with his bare hands. And of course in the comics themselves we've seen him get punked by various C-level villains and/or MacGuffin of the week to build up the mysterious threat, and then he'd turn around and go one on one with someone like Mongul or Darkseid. And that's not even taking into account that most writers fail to use his multiple powers in an exciting and dynamic way.

Now I do agree he took some silly beatings here and there on JL - where he was flanked by other characters of different power & skill sets - but he also took some equally silly beatings in his own show. Just saying.

As for Wonder Woman getting better fights in that first season, well, it was her first real showcase in animation in what, 10 years, 15 years, probably more than that since the old Super-Friends show ended? I'd say she was entitled to some good throw down battles.

 

[KYO'NYUU IMOUTO]

I'd say Superman's terrible fights throughout the DCAU were more of a symptom of the overall problem of all of the fights in the DCAU being pretty bad, both in terms of direction and boarding. I think there was also too little in the way of making the villains simply stronger or as strong as the heroes, forcing fights to either be the villain dominating or the hero.

 

[reflection01]

Interesting point. Maybe that's why some of the most memorable fights were good guy vs. good guy like Superman vs. Captain Atom and Superman vs. Captain Marvel.

 

[BigFatHairyDeal]

I'd say Superman's terrible fights throughout the DCAU were more of a symptom of the overall problem of all of the fights in the DCAU being pretty bad, both in terms of direction and boarding. I think there was also too little in the way of making the villains simply stronger or as strong as the heroes, forcing fights to either be the villain dominating or the hero.

I wouldn't say "all of the fights" were bad, but a lot were, yes. Looking at that same episode, take into consideration that WW, Flash, Superman, Batman, and MM laid out a trap to catch Felix Faust, and Faust still got away. This is supposed to be the JL, and despite having the advantage of numbers, the element of surprise, and even most likely raw power, they still couldn't catch the bad guy.

I think the aforementioned Superman/WW fight also qualifies as a bad fight sequence (where I agree with your generalization is that I can't remember a good fight from season 1), but there are some mitigating circumstances. At the end Superman wasn't trying to win the fight, but since it was S1 JL, there was no outcome to expect other than Superman was going to take a bad beatdown.

Regarding WW as top dog, I can see why that might be hard to believe, even though it's not totally absurd, either. She's supposed to be near Superman's level, but then there'd be an instance in which she's shown to be vulnerable to bullets and sharps unless she blocks them with her bracelets, and the average person who knows anything about comic knows that Superman can do more damage with his fists than a normal person can do with a knife or gun. I know there's always the concept of sharpness and bluntness, but that's not the type or reasoning that should hold up to even half-baked scrutinizing. In short, whatever problems in power consistency you might have for someone like Superman, that issue is probably twice as bad for WW.

 

[KYO'NYUU IMOUTO]

I think the aforementioned Superman/WW fight also qualifies as a bad fight sequence (where I agree with your generalization is that I can't remember a good fight from season 1), but there are some mitigating circumstances. At the end Superman wasn't trying to win the fight, but since it was S1 JL, there was no outcome to expect other than Superman was going to take a bad beatdown.

I don't think Superman not trying to win per sé is particularly relevent. Bad direction and animation is still bad direction and animation. If you're going to pit two fan favorites against each other, y'might as well give it a little effort. The outcome is irrelevent.

Then again, beating the "Season One sucks~!! ♪" drum is pretty passé as it is, so that'll only take us so far. The one example that always sticks with me is Destroyer. The big finalé of a fifteen year saga is probably one of the worst animated battle series episodes I have ever seen. The one paricularly good cut in the entire episode is Batman dodging the Omega beams. Superman punching Darkseid across town looks awful, matched only by the awful music and acting. Ugh.

What was that I was saying about the passé beating of drums?

 

[BigFatHairyDeal]

I don't think Superman not trying to win per sé is particularly relevent. Bad direction and animation is still bad direction and animation. If you're going to pit two fan favorites against each other, y'might as well give it a little effort. The outcome is irrelevent.

Then again, beating the "Season One sucks~!! ♪" drum is pretty passé as it is, so that'll only take us so far. The one example that always sticks with me is Destroyer. The big finalé of a fifteen year saga is probably one of the worst animated battle series episodes I have ever seen. The one paricularly good cut in the entire episode is Batman dodging the Omega beams. Superman punching Darkseid across town looks awful, matched only by the awful music and acting. Ugh.

What was that I was saying about the passé beating of drums?

Points well taken. It also doesn't bode well that the "one particularly good cut" you describe didn't make sense on a couple levels. I guess as far as the action sequences go, I was mostly content with low fanfare scenes, because the visuals themselves never really drew me into the show and as such weren't the big selling point. As long as they conveyed the point properly, I was okay with them. I'll never know what were the money, time, and manpower budget limitations on the animation crew, so I'm generally satisfied assuming that they just made the most of what they had. I'm willingly remaining ignorant on that issue.

 

[Dusty]

I just stumbled across this thread I swear...
Anyways, why do so many people forget the great stuff Superman has done? Yeah he has been pounded on many times but he usually gets right back up and cleans the bad guys clock 2 seconds later. Does anyone remember JL's "Injustice For All" part 2 where he beat the crud out of Grundy without breaking a sweat? Or "In Blackest Night" part one and Two where he owned the Manhunter Robots when, GL, J'onn, Flash, and HG, barely did anything? And who could forget what Superman did to Darkseid in "Twilight?" I may not like it when they have Superman so aggressive, but he wasted Darkseid. As for STAS though, many are correct on this IMO, I actually like to forget many episodes of STAS because he got owned 10X more and the ownings were much worse than anything else in the DCAU IMO. Livewire, Mala, Granny's Fury's, and every other villain just about owned him and he usually barely won by the skin of his teeth. Anyways, yeah DCAU Superman has been portrayed as less powerful than in the comics, but he has also been shown to be just as tough many times too.
BTW this is an old thread, lol.



D.

 

[BigFatHairyDeal]

Keep in mind that before this thread was necro'd, the last post was from 2/1/02, which means none of the those discussion points apply to seasons 2 and beyond of JL/JLU. Furthermore, the Superman-is-a-wimp-in-season-1 discussion point is pretty well documented, and even acknowledged, by the show's creators.

Bruce Timm on Superman #1 (post-Season One): “By the time the first couple of episodes started airing we were almost done with the pre-production on the First Season. So, by the time we realized there were some problems we had, it was too late to fix them. There was almost nothing we could do. One of the things we had gotten the most critical hits for on the First Season was that supposedly we de-powered Superman and made him a big wimp.
“It wasn't a conscious decision on our part—it was literally because we had already done his own series and we had all these new characters to introduce and focus on—we felt [that] Superman could take care of himself. We didn't feel like we needed to give him any special attention, but what happened was [that] we fell into a rut of Superman getting knocked down and then not getting back up. It wasn't something [that] we realized was happening until we started getting the episodes back and the fans on the Internet started saying, 'Hey, wait a minute, Superman can't take a punch anymore!?' And we were saying, 'Oh my God, they're right!' But by that time we only had two or three episodes left on the First Season, so we tried to fix it as quickly as we could.
“He's a tough character—you don't want him to be too powerful, but you don't want to make him too wimpy. The trap we fell into on Justice League was, again, we have seven of these guys and whatever villains they go up against have to be big, powerful villains. So we used the easy trick of saying, ‘Okay: the villain walks into the scene and takes Superman down with one punch.’ [That way], we automatically know that he's a bad guy and it's going to take the entire Justice League to take him down. We didn't handle that with enough finesse.
“[So, for Season Two], we just really made sure that anytime [Superman] got knocked down that he got back up and eventually clean the clock [of whoever it was that knocked him down] and not have somebody else come in and clean his clock for him. We made sure we kept him at full strength—believable full strength—but made sure that it left room for the other Justice League guys to have something to do. It made our jobs harder, but ultimately it works better (courtesy of The Pulse).”

Superman

And as I like pointing out, the fact that Superman was less wimpy post-S1 and the show's overall quality improved is not a coincidence.