"Young Justice" News & Discussion Thread, Part 24 (Spoilers)

[Santino]

They're patronizing us. Technically we're all using the word "canceled" wrong. They didn't cancel it, they just opted to not renew it. So they're using semantics to try and look like they're the good guys.

 

[KYO'NYUU IMOUTO]

They're patronizing us. Technically we're all using the word "canceled" wrong. They didn't cancel it, they just opted to not renew it. So they're using semantics to try and look like they're the good guys.

Well, they're certainly not 'the bad guys'. While CN hardly put a lot of effort into trying to capitalize on the series they did certainly spend a lot of money on creating the series and airing in completion.

 

[Santino]

Well, they're certainly not 'the bad guys'. While CN hardly put a lot of effort into trying to capitalize on the series they did certainly spend a lot of money on creating the series and airing in completion.

They're not "the bad guys" for not renewing a not so lucrative show, but they're partially to blame for it not reaching it's potential...

Bad time slot, loooooong hiatus after long hiatus, getting pulled abruptly, hardly ever reran.

I'll stop now.

 

[CyberCubed]

Looking back on Greg's comment about being swamped with work, let's hope he's referring to an Earth-16 spin-off. I mean, if he wasn't, then it was a bit cruel of him to phrase it like that at a time when lots of Young Justice fans were waiting with baited breath for word on season 3. It led a few people on, with good reason. So maybe it was some kind of veiled reassurance? A spin-off would be nice... though I think we should still push for a mini-series.

Why would CN greenlit another expensive 2D animated project when Young Justice only did so-so in ratings and didn't catch on with young kids?

The new CG Batman show will be their flagship series for at least the next 5 years, and TT Go is a comedy series just like CN's other comedy shows right now. They probably only want one, "action cartoon" and its Batman because they want to sell Batman toys.

They canceled Teen Titans at 65 episodes despite it being insanely popular at the time. I could have seen that show lasting for 100 episodes, but they ended it anyway since they had enough for syndication.

To be honest I'm surprised Young Justice even got made in the first place. The animation for the show had to be very expensive, and the large cast of heroes made it difficult for young children to follow since it didn't exactly focus on the same characters week after week. The fact that all the starting cast was unknown except Robin to kids probably didn't help either.

 

[Yojimbo]

Why would CN greenlit another expensive 2D animated project when Young Justice only did so-so in ratings and didn't catch on with young kids?

Cause Sam Register says so. And that last part is malarkey, children loved the show as much as teenagers and adults.

The new CG Batman show will be their flagship series for at least the next 5 years, and TT Go is a comedy series just like CN's other comedy shows right now. They probably only want one, "action cartoon" and its Batman because they want to sell Batman toys.

5 years? I'm surprised by your optimistic outlook. Or are you counting hiatus periods, too?

They canceled Teen Titans at 65 episodes despite it being insanely popular at the time. I could have seen that show lasting for 100 episodes, but they ended it anyway since they had enough for syndication.

No show ever made to 100 unless you lump BTAS, AOB&R, and TNBA together yet just about every show made after could last that long, too.

To be honest I'm surprised Young Justice even got made in the first place. The animation for the show had to be very expensive, and the large cast of heroes made it difficult for young children to follow since it didn't exactly focus on the same characters week after week. The fact that all the starting cast was unknown except Robin to kids probably didn't help either.

Again, because Sam Register said so.

GREG: And it intimidated both of us. Sam sort of said, “Here’s the kind of show we want to do, something with Justice League, or the young characters or something like that,” and he threw out the Young Justice title, just the title, and I think we were both terrified, because Bruce’s [Bruce Timm] Justice League Unlimited is so iconic, and so great, and Teen Titans is a very different show, but it’s also a great show in the other direction, and so for us to forge something that was new, and wasn’t treading on the turf of those two shows was sort of scary. And then we sort of found our placement with this covert ops team, and I put together a list of – I’m not kidding – 50 teenage characters for us to choose from. We went through and made the decision fairly early on that this was going to be a young DC universe, that Superman will have only shown up ten years ago, put on the cape ten years ago, Batman would have only put on the cape nine years ago, that the heroes haven’t been around that long, and once you’ve made that decision, then the idea of starting with Dick Grayson and Wally West, the original side kicks, they’re still young…

BRANDON: I think that also helped us get out from under the shadow of these other shows, like Teen Titans and Justice League – to sort of reset the DC youth, in a way, and that allowed us the freedom to find our own identity.

GREG: I think, from an economic standpoint, we have to hit boys 6 – 14 for Cartoon Network to sell their ad space or whatever, so if you think of it as a bull’s eye with concentric circles, that’s the bull’s eye we have to hit – but I’m not satisfied with that and I don’t think Brandon is either. A, we want boys and girls, so there’s a lot of great relationship stuff in this, there’s humor in this show – I mean, it’s a serious show, but there’s a lot of humor in it, there’s a lot of eye candy for little kids. I think little kids could enjoy this show, and some stuff will go over their heads, but they won’t know it’s going over their heads. There are a lot of explosions and guys in costumes, big villains and big events that are eye candy for the youngest audience, but there’s a lot of sophisticated stories for a teen audience, a college age audience, an old fart audience like me – and I certainly think any fan of DC comics in general is going to find a lot of great stuff from the 75 year history of DC comics to enjoy in the show.

Everything's "expensive" - What numbers are you going off of and what is the source of these numbers?

 

[CyberCubed]

Cause Sam Register says so. And that last part is malarkey, children loved the show as much as teenagers and adults.

Was it really? The show never seemed to catch on the same way Teen Titans did. The toy line being canceled early didn't help. The stories were too serious and the main cast was too large for kids to get attached, its not like how Teen Titans focused on the same 5 characters and was very comedic. Plus everyone who was around back then surely remembers how insanely popular Teen Titans was. Even KidsWB starting airing it on Saturday mornings for some time despite being reruns.

5 years? I'm surprised by your optimistic outlook. Or are you counting hiatus periods, too?

The Batman lasted 5 years. Either way it'll probably get a full 65 episode run regardless since CN speeds through airings sometimes.

Everything's "expensive" - What numbers are you going off of and what is the source of these numbers?

CG animation is cheaper than the expensive hand-drawn 2D animation Young Justice uses. This is why Green Lantern and Batman are using it because they only have to create the character models once and then continualy re-use them.

 

[Yojimbo]

Was it really? The show never seemed to catch on the same way Teen Titans did. The toy line being canceled early didn't help. The stories were too serious and the main cast was too large for kids to get attached, its not like how Teen Titans focused on the same 5 characters and was very comedic. Plus everyone who was around back then surely remembers how insanely popular Teen Titans was. Even KidsWB starting airing it on Saturday mornings for some time despite being reruns.

TT isn't innocent of deviating from its main cast either in the later seasons. I didn't like Teen Titans. I actually ignored watching the show until 2009 when I pounced on some deal and got all the DVDs. I think JLU had the same insane following at the time. After those two ended, we never saw a show that caught a big a fire as they did. We don't exactly have a Kids WB to air reruns of YJ and GL, at least CN bothered to air some on Boomerang during the last hiatus. There's that Vortexx block but it's no Kids WB...

The Batman lasted 5 years. Either way it'll probably get a full 65 episode run regardless since CN speeds through airings sometimes.

But that was Kids WB, not CN. Two different beasts. I just don't believe anymore that a show can last 5 years. 2-3 seems to be the rule of thumb now but it gets muddled now because CN starts off with these big 26 episode orders whereas TT and The Batman were 13 episode pick ups.

CG animation is cheaper than the expensive hand-drawn 2D animation Young Justice uses. This is why Green Lantern and Batman are using it because they only have to create the character models once and then continualy re-use them.

I seem to remember Sam Liu or someone on GL or BTB saying it the CG shows were more expensive than 2D. Might have been one of the SDCC's.

 

[KYO'NYUU IMOUTO]

The generic number thrown around for American hand drawn animation is $300,000-500,000USD an episode. That fits about right with Young Justice's results compared to other American animated series'. Of course, we'll never know for sure until an actual official number is released for the series.

 

[Alex20]

No show ever made to 100 unless you lump BTAS, AOB&R, and TNBA together yet just about every show made after could last that long, too.

But that was Kids WB, not CN. Two different beasts. I just don't believe anymore that a show can last 5 years. 2-3 seems to be the rule of thumb now but it gets muddled now because CN starts off with these big 26 episode orders whereas TT and The Batman were 13 episode pick ups.

I know it's not a DC Comics show but Star Wars: The Clone Wars has lasted 5 seasons with over 100 episodes on Cartoon Network.

 

[Yojimbo]

I know it's not a DC Comics show but Star Wars: The Clone Wars has lasted 5 seasons with over 100 episodes on Cartoon Network.

Correct, I was just talking about DC Comics shows. Clone Wars just achieved that milestone this year, right? Not to digress but I think I saw that one and was wondering why it was just robots and that little dude starring.

 

[Alex20]

Correct, I was just talking about DC Comics shows. Clone Wars just achieved that milestone this year, right? Not to digress but I think I saw that one and was wondering why it was just robots and that little dude starring.

Poor timing I guess. They mostly do multiple episode story arcs like the '90s Spider-Man TAS instead of single episodes now and episode 100 just happened to be the second to last episode of that poorly received arc. I guess that's better than having a clip show interrupt it and pushing back the Darth Maul episodes even further.

I think Young Justice could have made it to 100 or close to it since it has been getting really good ratings at least lately and it has a large cast of characters. I think the reason it and Green Lantern TAS are being cancelled is because CN doesn't want to expand DC Nation or DC doesn't want to pay to have it expanded, and either CN or DC believe the two new shows will be bigger successes.

 

[swarlock]

I just saw this message on Cartoon Network's Facebook page.





Hopefully, this means they've been paying attention to Twitter.

I wish that were so but I've learned to read between the lines when they say things like this.

 

[wingsabre]

I think 2D animation is much cheaper than 3D animation. Don't really have the numbers to back me up, but the reality is there's almost no hand drawn cartoons out there anymore. YJ is mainly computer animation. Technique wise, it's probably similar to the Simpsons and South Park. The added cost is contributed to the extra detail used in the series. Compared to JL/JLU the characters have much more details and those details are likely reasons for the added cost of production.

As a whole, I think the dynamics that made JL and TT so popular back then is not present anymore. When JL and TT was on, Kids WB was also on, and there were plenty of cross promotion with Static Shock. Batman Beyond had also just finished, and people grew up in DCAU. So it had the advantage of having an audience that grew up and were fans of that universe, and new younger audiences. Fans of DCAU also grew up as captive audiences. It was a time where Saturday morning programing was still rather ubiquitous. FoxKids still existed and Batman TAS was on that, then Kids WB continued that franchise. So I like many other kids at that time grew up with DCAU, and by the time JL came on, it was a known commodity. What also helped JL and TT at that time was the benefit of frequent and broad exposure. Yes, it was aired on Kids WB, and it had a prime time slot on Saturday Nights from around 6-8 at night, but it also had reruns on the weekly toonami slot. CN also had a deep investment in action cartoons in after school programing. Now all of those shows seem to have migrated to Adult Swim, and YJ can't fit in that programing block. Also, these shows were a lot popular back then because almost all the superhero shows were paired together in some way in a complete block. When KidsWB was on the air, we had some combination of X-men, Batman, Superman, and Pokemon lined up together. All of them had this form of symbiosis.

 

[Marvelman02]

I'd like to say a few words in defense of Cartoon Network. It is true that many of their decisions regarding Young Justice were questionable. I also understand that CN's corporate "happy-talk" can be frustrating. But, I have to believe that there are at least a few people at CN who didn't get into broadcasting just to make a lot of money but also to do quality work. Young Justice was a great show and I am sure that there at least some people at CN who were proud to be a part of that show's inception and they are probably more disappointed than anyone except perhaps Greg and Brandon that the show was not perceived as profitable enough to keep on the air. I'm still mad but I can have some empathy for people on the other side of the fence.

 

[Medinnus]

I'd like to say a few words in defense of Cartoon Network. It is true that many of their decisions regarding Young Justice were questionable.

I disagree. Just because we didn't like the decisions, doesn't mean they were questionable. We don't know what the question was wherein their decision was the best answer - I doubt it was arbitrary. They aren't idiots throwing darts at a decision dart board )

I hope...

I also understand that CN's corporate "happy-talk" can be frustrating.

Standard Marketing 101. When I see what in the geek trade we refer to as "content-free marketing" blather, the important part is that they have heard the issue; a non-substansive response is par for the course, especially if they are looking at a long-term serious answer.

But, I have to believe that there are at least a few people at CN who didn't get into broadcasting just to make a lot of money but also to do quality work. Young Justice was a great show and I am sure that there at least some people at CN who were proud to be a part of that show's inception and they are probably more disappointed than anyone except perhaps Greg and Brandon that the show was not perceived as profitable enough to keep on the air. I'm still mad but I can have some empathy for people on the other side of the fence.

We don't know that profit of the show drove the decision. We assume that it did, as its the only metric we have, and that, a ton of supposition.

Lets put it another way; if Cartoon Network bases its decision on revenue, lets identify the sources of revenue:

* General Advertisers - The eyeballs are the important metric; lets say kids age 6-14. The higher the ratings, the more CN can charge for the ad space.
* Brand Advertisers - Again, important metric is the eyeballs, but with a twist - they care about the eyeball share for kids 6-14, but specifically for YJ/Green Lantern/DCU-based properties. This is where the toy makers, DCU Online, and so forth advertise.
* Subsidies - When Marvel went bankrupt, all of a sudden Captain America, Avengers, and Silver Surfer became un-viable - this is because Marvel was paying some (or most, or all) of the production costs. Marvel really wanted those cartoons, because they were making money from the toys, and because Marvel was lagging behind DC in brand recognition for everyone except Spider-Man and Wolverine. Marvel knows - to the penny! - how much they can charge for those licenses, and how much more they can charge if the brand is enhanced from TV series. Dana Moreshead was the guy in Marvel licensing at that period, and he was a close colleague at Stan Lee Media, who gave me deep dives into the licensing game so I would better understand SLM's business drivers.

At this point in the YJ and GL life cycle, CN knows what the revenue numbers are for all three of those, and they know how much money they'd have to shell out for marginal increases in eyeball share.

So the question is, so that CN does better in revenues from any given property, are they going to make more money from Season Three of YJ, or will they make more money from a new Batman series? They have a good idea of what they can expect - they've rebooted Batman before, and have many years of delta information. Will they make more money from Green Lantern, or from a reboot of the Teen Titans? They can extrapolate a ballpark on Teen Titans Go, and they can compare that potential revenue to what they might make from a Green Lantern season.

And expect them to go for the money every single time.

 

[Santino]

Comcast episode description for "Complications": Miss Martian is in big trouble with Black Manta, Aqualad has his hands full with Sportsmaster and Cheshire.


So it sounds like Kaldur is definitely up and at 'em. I really can't wait for this one.

 

[Sketch]

So the show managed over 2 million this past Saturday and Green Lantern wasn't too far behind. The 18-49 share is impressive at 0.77 but with 2 million that indicates a sizable increase with viewers under 18 as well. I wish we could see those numbers but DC Nation may get a shout out in the weekly Turner PR because of that increase. It's going to take more than a few good weeks to get the show back in production even for a small episode count but it looks like the younger fans are rising to the occasion.

 

[Santino]

That's pretty darn good considering DC Nation is in the same timeslot as Sponge Bob.

 

[Zorkel567]

I seem to remember Sam Liu or someone on GL or BTB saying it the CG shows were more expensive than 2D. Might have been one of the SDCC's.

This right here is true. i a pretty sure it wasDave Filoni, head of Star Was The CLone Wars, that has said early on in the show's run, they were limited from doing a lot due to constraints 2D animation doesn't. He said how each eisode costs a small fortune, due to having to build character models and entire "sets" per se. He has said that cloaks weren't brought in until Season 3 or 4 due to them costing a lot to animate, something 2D animation wouldn't need to worry about. Also, SW reuses a lot of the same specie, human and Weequay, due to them being generic modelsthat they do not need o do a lot with, compared to just drawing in all different looks.

Also, maybe a little hope for the future of this world. "Young Justice" Lives On In "Young Justice: Legacy" Game - Comic Book Resources

Basically, this:

"Matthew Scott: It hasn't. We're late-stage between beta and GMC. The game's done and the story's done. The creators of the show were heavily involved. The game is, for all intents and purposes, done. "Young Justice" not coming back for a third season has no impact whatsoever. If anything, it gives us a little more freedom to do some of the stuff we'd talked about with Greg and Brandon as a possible sequel or other stuff we'd like to do. We have this license for a long time, so it's possible we'll get to play out some of the stuff they had planned in interactive form instead of on Cartoon Network."

 

[GWOtaku]

CG animation is cheaper than the expensive hand-drawn 2D animation Young Justice uses. This is why Green Lantern and Batman are using it because they only have to create the character models once and then continualy re-use them.

I seem to remember Sam Liu or someone on GL or BTB saying it the CG shows were more expensive than 2D. Might have been one of the SDCC's.

Yep. This fact was also expressed by Sam Register at a keynote address in 2011 (relevant remarks start at 22:40 regarding GL TAS)

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